Whispers in the Loggia had a interesting post over the week at Landmarks of Religious Rome: Michelangelo's Dome... and Moroni's Trumpet
After years of warming relations with the Catholic world, albeit punctuated by the occasional doctrinal spat, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints moved earlier today to heighten its profile in the Pope's backyard, revealing its plans to build a temple in Rome.Announced this morning by church President Thomas Monson at the Mormons' twice-yearly General Conference in Salt Lake City, the temple -- location to be determined -- will be the first for Italy's approximately 23,000 LDS. While some of the church's founding members gained converts on journeys to the Bel Paese (much of it still under the temporal control of the Popes at the time), the Mormons shuttered their Italian mission by 1862, only reopening it in the early 1950s.
Much more at the link . Relations between Mormons and Catholics I have observed are pretty good in the United States but things seem to get testy more abroad.
Whispers also has this interesting bit of history
In 1866, the plot for Utah's first Catholic church was granted by Brigham Young, its early bishops were given prime Sunday-evening airtime on Mormon-owned radio to address their small, scattered flock, and both 1993's renovation of the Cathedral of the Madeleine and the parish's ongoing community efforts have been made possible in large part due to the largesse of the LDS leadership. Beyond the Western state, the Mormons' famed network of relief workers and aid materials has an extensive history of teaming up with Catholic Charities on humanitarian missions, and seeing it as a "classroom of peace," the LDS have readily and quietly provided volunteers and support to the Pope-led celebrations of World Youth Day.
In recent years, the ties between the faiths became even warmer thanks to several shared stances on social issues and outreach-friendly leaders on both sides. Long the diocese's closest ally among the LDS' top brass, Monson -- who became the Mormons' "prophet, seer and revelator" in February on the death of the church's longtime chief, Gordon Hinckley -- has been described as being "as comfortable in the Madeleine as he is in the Salt Lake Temple," and in a first, two members of the church's Quorum of the Twelve (the Mormons' equivalent of the College of Cardinals) took part in the ecumenical prayer gathering in Washington during Pope Benedict's April visit.
Now of course there a HUGE DOCTRINAL issues of course and the recent controversy over Catholic Baptism records shows that there is tension. Still the relationship at lest in Utah and the rest of the United States appears to be good and respectful
Monday, October 6, 2008
Mormon Temple to Be Constructed in Rome
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168 comments:
So, the tentacles of Jospeh Smith's cult are reaching out to Rome.
Thank you for this post. The announcement was celebrated by my family as I have a brother who served an LDS mission in Italy and my wife is 1/2 Italian.
It has also been my experience that US Catholic/LDS relations are very good. My family lives in a highly Catholic town and have been treated well by all. I hope the Rome temple serves to increase those good relations as Italians are invited to tour the temple during its open-house prior to being dedicated.
I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but this is a shame and breaks my heart. I live in Utah now, and you can see a Mormon temple from 5 miles out they are so lit up. I have been to Rome, it's a beautiful city and this will be nothing but an eyesore.
Regardless, this will bring much attention to the LDS church and it's many flaws and falsehoods.
This is wonderful news for Latter Day Saints all over the world. Each new temple is celebrated as the church grows worldwide. The temple will be built with local architecture in mind and beautiful materials from Italy and Europe.
My brother has been an interior designer for LDS temples across the world and each is a beautiful place for worship and meditation.
I think it is sad that the person who lives in Utah thinks it is a shame for a Mormon temple to be built in Rome. I wonder how he/she would feel if his privilege to attend and worship was denied him. By reaching out to each other and respecting other faiths and religions we follow the Savior we worship.
Thank you for this post. May we all be understanding and supportive of the faiths of others, especially those that are centered on Christ.
i am shoked by the comment that says it will be an "eyesore." I am not mormon or catholic, but I live in utah and think that the mormon's temples are beautiful! a mormon friend also told me that it will actually be outside of rome in a more residential area
I was a Mormon and left over thier mind controll practices. Knowing that they view us as converts and no more, I am heartbroken to see thisunchristian and cult building going up in beautiful Rome. On my Mission we taught openly against the Holy Roman Church I returned to. I actually confessed my LDS mission.
We do not need an LDS Temple in Rome, but the LDS need a temple in Rome so as to "Borg us" increasingly into their collective. How dissapointing to hear of this.
Vegas Don: sorry your soul is so poisoned. You need to wise up. I served and LDS mission in Milano, Italy, and we were extremely diligent in not being offensive about La Chiesa Catolica Romana. Do we have differences in studies of origin and in the authority lines of Priesthood, yes! But I gained a lot of respect for the honest in heart in that church, much like I would anyone similar in any other church--or in the unchurched (even you). Guess who taught us to cook the Cucina Italiana?? Yep, the sisters. Loved them. And they appreciated us because we were out doing good things instead of being punks. Comb back, Donnie, we'd like to know you again.
I thank Heavenly Father for this great blessing to have a Temple just in Rome this is amazing!
A Mormon Temple in Rome, I am getting a sick stomach. Rome, the Eternal City, will never be the same.
Someone find the ant-acid.
I was Mormon, and asked to have my records removed. I was tired of having my brain insulted. Now, my heart is. Pax Vobiscum.
It's time for adults to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales. It never ceases to amaze me how people of the religious kind, who even have common denominators in Christianity can't get a long and struggle for power. I'm going to break it down for you...you're all nuts. There is no waiting to see who is right and who is wrong. You've all been programed to believe in absurdity. Imagine how ridiculous you'd all sound if you were still professing your belief in Santa Claus. Jesus became the literal son of God during a vote at the Council of Nicaea...end of story. A rigged vote by Constantine who wanted to unite all of Rome under one God. Educate your minds with facts not fiction. We are about to have a currency melt down and mormons are building temples costing millions upon millions. We have much bigger problems on the horizon. If people are stupid enough to give LDS Inc. their money then I can't feel sorry for them when they are destitute. Hopefully these power hungry, money junkies will give some money back when they need it.
I understand your views. To me, it is more like having a pig run through a museum in Paris all satisfied with the fact that it is in Paris. I was a Mormon and was neck deep in the mind game, the word games, the wierd theological issues that "...if you were inspired you'd know, too" kinda stuff. I reject certain aspects of views of Christianity, however, I am Christian. I left the Mormons officially because of what and who they are. if people only knew that they believe that Christ and God are polygamous, that Christ and Satan are brothers, etc... I returned to my Catholic faith for the same reasons.
I respect your views. I see stupid people all around me all day :). I just really hate to see that Mormon pig running through Rome.
Don
To those worried the Temple will be an "eyesore" in the beautiful city of Rome: relax! It will be build far from the city center, outside the ring road near that venerable italian institution the new IKEA store.
I can't believe how so many comments are negative and ignorant. How anyone can read the Book of Mormon and not sense the truth in it is either completely lacking in faith or confused.
I do not understand how so many people do not understand what a principle is. Because if one understood what principles are they'd see the benefit in not only the Church of Jesus Christ, but in many similar churches. While completely missing and ignoring all of the good principles, they adhere to and support all of the false ones in their own belief system.
The faithless need to repent and wake up.
We are fully informed. We do not have to believe something we know to be wrong. The Mormons (I was one, wenton a Mission, went to the Temple, Ward Clerk, EQ Instructor). We do not want your faith in Rome. Rome is as old as law and civilization itself.
I get sick and tired of Mormons telling me that I am wrong for not running and jumping clapping my hands with them. I do not like the beliefs of your faith. Your God lives on a Planet called Kolob, he has countless wives (quad-humpty quad rilions?), Christ andSatan are brothers, and your faith is run by a coproration of the Church of Jesus Christ of...). We are fully informed, we know why we do not like the beliefs of your Church and are tired of the sales line.
Keep your "fun house' Temples in UT.
Don in Las Vegas, ...clear?
...tell us about Brigham Young, the second Prophet describing the people that lived on the Moon. JosephSmith said the same when he was alive. Such a Moses yu have!
Don
You LDS must know that not everyone is as happy to see you as you are to see yourselves. We are fully informed, we are knowledgeable,and just do not welcome you. We will be noce, polite, but you are not welcome.
We do not have to be assimilated into the Borg, and resistance is not futile.
The LDS teaches and preaches that all other denominations besides them are an abomination to God. They preach and teach the Roman Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon. Their temples taught that the Roman Catholics were under the power of Satan in their endowment videos and now they teach that pastors are under Satan's influence. The Book of Mormon talks about the Whore of Babylon with a description of the Roman Catholic Church. The LDS Satanic Evil Cult do not respect other religions in their temples and teachings is a proven fact...however, in public they vocally claim they do respect other religions and they can see truths in all religions but that they have ALL the Truths! LOL Wolves in Sheep clothing. Joseph Smith is the biggest fraud pedophile in Mormon history! He was a wizard, spiritualist, religious synthesizer, Self claimed king of USA. Ran for USA Presidency, raped teens under plural marriages, had multiple wives practiced Polygamy, and Polyandry (married women who were already married). For more Real LDS history visit UTLM. ORG.
The Salt Lake Temple have Satanic Upside Down Stars of Baphomet never crosses in their temples or churches. They preach God was a man, he has multiple wives, Tan to dark skin is the curse of Cain from God, They will be Gods with their own planet with multiple wives and eternal carnal sex. That God leaves close to a planet named Kolob, Satan is brother of Jesus.
Communism and Socialism in the LDS and Mormons churches are camouflage as the Law of Consecration. They want to have a Mormon president and convert the world to Mormonism in their New World Order with their Council of 50. They infiltrate the FBI and CIA and government to get more control and power. Very Dangerous people!
Joseph Smith raised to the sublime degree of Freemasons in one day! He saw visions and had dreams probably Satanic inspired due to his witchcraft and divination. He translated the Book of Mormon with Peep Seer Stones forbidden in the Bible! Not the Holy Spirit! Mormons have the Mark of the Beast even the good Mormons living in ignorance...repent and follow Jesus!
Joseph Smith claims that he did more than Jesus in upholding the church!
Blasphemies, Heresies, Sacrilegious, Lies, Mind Control, Intimidation,Master Manipulators, Storytellers of fairy tales, Massacre (murder many innocent people including crashing skulls of the emigrants babies) , The Sinister Occult, Whoredoms, Secret combinations, Sexual perversions, Ritual abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, Law of Consecration (communism in disguised), Idolaters (worship their prophets and sing hymns to the Man Joseph),Power hungry, Wealth greed to populate with temples the world, They Preach that Jesus was an adulterer who practiced Polygamy! = LDS aka Mormons.
Rome do not sale your land to the Satanic Building of Temples of these dangerous blinded people... They are not your friends but want to convert your Catholics to follow their Prophet Joe the insatiable sexual beast. Duh! Wake up! They will baptized your Catholic dead relatives! Last call wake up!
Rome will be cursed with that Evil Temple of Doom where demons from hell constantly visit!
Hey Anonymous,
Why ibn the world would you bring logic and truth into an issue based upon emotion and "feelings".
I agree 100%. My years as a Mormon were the most difficult of my life due to their doctrines and mind games.
Frankly, both anonymous and VegasDon are bringing a large number of falsehoods into the discussion, mingled with a bit of truth. There's a McDonald's in Rome, isn't there? So you think a beautiful church building is more reprehensible than Mickey D's? Hmm.
When I heard about this it made me sick in my stomach. I am catholic from a South American country and have been living in the Salt Lake County for 2 years... I don't understand why mormons here seem to not know that their church and what they believe in is a huge slap in the face to the Catholic church... the whole premise on which the LDS church was created on, the whole idea of "restoration"... means that the Catholic church is completely false and that God's and Jesus's word is untrue... He stated very explicitly the truthfulness of the catholic church and it's strength, how it would never fall http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm and mormons claim to believe in Jesus... well if they truly did then they would be CATHOLIC!! this alone infuriates me!! Mormon people have a very hard time realizing this for some reason.
Wasatch rebel, others,
The LDS Temple near Rome is not welcome. You must stop screaming how we must be so pleased and happy that it is there, and realize, we do not subscribe to your way of thinking. I will feel, justifiably, as i choose. It is NOT a welcome part of the Roman Scenery. We know that you Mormons call us the "Great Whore of the Earth", that you say that we do not hold the Priesthood and are apostates. I am deeply offended as are 1.8 Billion Catholics worldwide that you would try this political and tactical move. We have superficially good relations. We know your intent. And we are insulted. I am deeply insulted and do not look forward to your Temple. It has infact, caused me to write an e book on why I left the Mormon Church, the mind games and the Mission Presidents that are running for GA, and your actual belief in Christ as a Diety that has countless wives, a physical body, and a sex drive. Don't deny it. rest assured that this book of the truths that you never tell others, will be in Italian as well. People have the right to know the things you hide from them.
noi non vogliamo il vostro tempio qui
Don, Las Vegas
Well, all I can say is that the comments on this blog are better than the comments on YouTube! Some of them are useful and constructive, from both sides.
@VegasDon:
LDS people realize that not everyone wants a temple in Rome. But the temple in Rome is for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormons) in Rome! They didn't build it to offend anyone, but for their ordinances and their own faith. The temple is not there to proselyte you or "borg" you, it's there for existing members of the LDS faith to enter for special worship. And unless you are lying about being a missionary, you know that. It is disingenuous of you to try to make people think that the temple is there to convert people when it's not.
More importantly, the Pope was ok with the LDS temple. He didn't ask the LDS leaders not to build it. If it were evil, as you say, wouldn't he exert his influence and ask them not to, or speak out against it? When Catholics wanted to build a Cathedral in Salt Lake, LDS leaders not only said yes, but asked LDS members to help. And now that the LDS church wants to build a temple in Rome the officials of your church did not complain. Although the Pope doesn't control Rome, he certainly has influence there.
When inviting LDS leaders to to the pope's ecumenical meeting in 2009, the vatican explained "“room must be made for those who seek salvation under the mantle of Christ’s saving cross, even while denying other essential elements of the Christian faith.” So even though you and I disagree about points of doctrine and the authority of the priesthood, your own leaders have said that you should "make room" for the LDS members and their needs.
It seems like you are trying to second guess your own spiritual leader. Do you believe you know better than he does? If you really follow him, wouldn't you accept the building of the LDS Temple with Christlike love? Perhaps you dissented from the LDS church for some personal reasons, and you still hate it so much that you now second guess the Vatican as well because they sympathize the desire of Latter Day Saints to follow Christ. I pray that you are able to resolve your person issues and find peace through the savior, Jesus Christ. I'm not saying this to make you angry, I really mean it, because I sense you are very hurt and angry. I'm so sorry if someone in the LDS faith hurt or disappointed you. I hope you will forgive them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness
Mmm
You are right, in a way. One of the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that the priesthood authority given to Peter was eventually lost due to wickedness on the earth. Their interpretation of the scripture you quote is not the same as yours. I do not intend to make any attack on the history of your church or criticize you. It is enough to simple say that Latter Day Saints see it differently. And I can see how you might feel that this is an attack or a "slap in the face". They might see your views the same way. However, it's not an attack on the the Pope, personally, nor on members of the Catholic faiths.
There is a very good article that explains the LDS viewpoint on this subject, and i think it does it without being rude or inflammitory, if you care to read it:
http://tinyurl.com/44bzyxs
Doesn't it make sense for seekers of Christ who disagree with one another in doctrine to still treat each other with love and respect? If some member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has treated you unkindly because of your differing beliefs, I apologize. I hope you can forgive that person or persons:
"dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris"
Even though we may disagree about many doctrinal issues, I think we both DO agree that Jesus Christ is the savior, and that faith and prayer are very important to our spiritual well being. There's no reason to imagine that the building of an LDS temple is an attack on any catholic person, even if the Latter Day Saints disagree with you doctrinally.
I understand and appreciate your views. However, the Temple is used as a publicity piece to impress others with the Mormon faith. I was a Mormon. When I was on my Mission we received the names and other info given on those simple tours to go see to try to convert. As a person that was LDS, served a Mission and held various ward positions, then returned to his Catholic faith ...a temple is a plac for conversion of non Mormons to Mormon. They DO want to "BORG" you into the Mormon collective.
The Pope is an individual that has his own views. He HAS to say that the temple in Rome is ok. I am also an individual that does not have the restraints that the Holy Father has. I do not like the Mormon Temple in Rome. They could have placed in anywhere in Italy. They choose Rome for a reason, please recognize that reason and the tactical reason for it. Resistance is not futile, I will not view this as a compliment.
Don
Joshua, please accept that I, and hundreds of millions of Catholics and non Catholics do not want or need the Mormon Temple in Rome. That is my view. I am entitled to it, and I will have it. I also notice that you have no profile. You take up for the Mormon position, but in a very diplomatic way. I also look at the way the idea is presented by you and your choice of wording. Joshua, you are not a third unbiased party. You want to present the Mormon Temple in a good light because I believe that you are not unbiased. You are a Mormon that is trying to present the Mormon Church as a victim, when they are the invader. I am not interested in a Mormon anything, ever. Especially one that does not have the constitutional fortitude to tell us who they are, hides behind not a profile, and is not UNbiased. You are a Mormon, part of the publicity machine. shame on you!
Don in Las Vegas. And i will feel as I choose
I find it very amusing that many of you are acting as if you were spokesmen for the Catholic Church and other denominations. You're singular opinion does not represent a full faith, and if the whole Catholic Church was SO set on and LDS Temple being built in Rome they would have stopped it, because there is no doubt that they have enough power to do so.
Yes, we have an individual opinions, as do all people. No one stated we speak for anyone but ourselves. :) We re not in support of any LDS Temple in Rome, the publicity and propaganda games go to far. We do have every right to not agree, agree and have our individual views, as do you, ...agreed.
Don in Las Vegas
"We have superficially good relations. We know your intent. And we are insulted." "We re not in support of any LDS Temple in Rome..." Those are a few examples where the use of the word "we" is used as a general consensus for a group of people. I think that the word that you should us in replacement of "we" is "I" because they're you're opinions. :)
Your point is understood. The use of the plural is from the groups that do not want a temple, not from the Catholic Church as a whole. However, he can feel comfortable in the knowledge that I feel very comfortable in not wanting his Temple in Rome, as 1.8 BILLION people do not see it as a part of our faith or tradition.As or me, I consider it to be rude, push and arrogant that I and others must be happy to see a cult that believes Christ was wives beyond number (a number so large it cannot be counted) that he has sex with to populate his worlds. A Temple is where "Baptisms for the Dead" are done. This practice will be done inside that building. That is perverted and not Christian in the least. It is a perverted practice. Live people are baptized for the now dead. Nowhere in the Bible or practice in the ancient Church was this done,much less conceived. It is hence a waste of good materials and real estate to us. We can easily view this perverted purpose and cultish behavior an intrusion. It is also very rude to think that our dead families that are Catholic and Muslim and Christian are just joyfully awaiting their pushing and rude behavior.
A Temple from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a blight and a rip in the beautiful fabric of tradition. Romulus and Remus are rolling in their graves.
it is not welcome, it is a building used for perverted practices and pushy prasctices are not welcome.
Face it, it is not a welcome addition and the publicityto stop others that do not want it from speaking up has to stop.
The theology is not Christian in the least even tho they have created a God and call him Christ.
Don in Las Vegas
There actually is a place in the Bible which refers to baptism for the dead. 1 Corinthians 15 verse 29.
"If Paul were making fun of a questionable, pagan practice, why would he cite it as evidence supporting the teachings of Christ? Think about this. He's teaching that resurrection is a reality. If it weren't a reality, then, he asks, what sense would there be to the practice of baptism for the dead? This passage just doesn't make sense - using my basic and limited reading skills - if baptism for the dead were a practice he wholly rejected. He cites it as something that is valid and as something which is consistent with the doctrine of resurrection. Note also the relationship between verse 29 and 32. In verse 32, Paul asks what value all his difficult missionary work in Ephesus would have been if the dead do not rise. His missionary work was real, it was inspired of God, and it has eternal value - but it would be in vain if there were no resurrection. He's citing his own godly work and sacrifice as a witness of the reality of the resurrection. Likewise, in verse 29, Paul asks what value baptism for the dead would have if there were no resurrection. For verse 29 to be consistent with the arguments Paul is developing and to be consistent with the parallel language in verse 32, it is only reasonable to understand that baptism for the dead was also real, inspire of God, and has eternal value - but it would be in vain if there were no resurrection. Paul cites the godly work of other Christians as a witness of the reality of the resurrection. It makes no sense to think that he is somehow condemning an evil practice - it would be totally out of place in the context of Chapter 15."
VegasDon, I really feel sorry for you. It must be horrible kicking against the pricks. However, we Latter-Day Saints still love you and would always welcome you back.
I am saddened by the Mean spirited comments. To be truely Christian one must be "Christ Like". Most other non christian religions at least believe in being kind and peaceful. The hate sayers should look within and see what makes them say such things and ask God to take that angry burden from them. We ALL are children of God and must treat one another as God would treat us. Peace begins with ones self and spreads more Peace to our communties. Peace be unto you.
Scott...Mormons tithe like God commands....They dont have to it is a choice. And unlike other faiths our teachers and leaders in communities around the world do not get paid. Their tithe pays for temples and food and shelter and world wide disasters even if one is not mormon. Mormons also have been commanded (taught) to have food and water supply even for their neighbors. To be debt free and get an education. It is quite the network and when the world is crumbling most Mormons will be prepared and be able to help others in need as well. Hence one of the Mormon symbols is the Beehive...everyone works together to help one another. It would be nice if communities and Countries worked more in this manner. And by the way The Mormon President Thomas S Monson and the other leaders had to seek permission by the Govt of Rome and it was granted...Maybe because that was the Christ like thing to do...and from what I know....Catholics believe in Christ and are taught to follow him and be like him. I am sure that is why the officials gave the ok. Peace...
Scott...Mormons tithe like God commands....They dont have to it is a choice. And unlike other faiths our teachers and leaders in communities around the world do not get paid. Their tithe pays for temples and food and shelter and world wide disasters even if one is not mormon. Mormons also have been commanded (taught) to have food and water supply even for their neighbors. To be debt free and get an education. It is quite the network and when the world is crumbling most Mormons will be prepared and be able to help others in need as well. Hence one of the Mormon symbols is the Beehive...everyone works together to help one another. It would be nice if communities and Countries worked more in this manner. And by the way The Mormon President Thomas S Monson and the other leaders had to seek permission by the Govt of Rome and it was granted...Maybe because that was the Christ like thing to do...and from what I know....Catholics believe in Christ and are taught to follow him and be like him. I am sure that is why the officials gave the ok. Peace...
David, I thank you for trying to make everyone agree with you, that is not a successful tactic tho.
The Mormons are in the government handout line inconsistent with their teachings on self sufficiency for others in the rest of the world. If you want a building, then build it without government money. Build it with your own money.
In regards to rejoining up with the traveling Mormon Circus... no thank you forever more. Like the hundreds of thousands that happily officially leave all the time, no way again! Any person that goes back to an abusive mate is sick.
Don, Las Vegas
Oh dear. Most christian religions teach that to be saved you must confess Jesus Christ your savior. Mormons do that; they believe He is the son of God and came into the world to save it. So, bottom line: Mormons most likely aren't going to hell. It is true that they want to convert everyone. But they do not advocate doing this by force. So here is what I would do. Investigate their church, if you decide they are wrong they are not hurting you; they will never tell you you are wrong or hate on you. They WILL bear their testimony but so what? If you decide they are right then you can join too. At any rate you get to decide for yourself. If you join that church and it disappoints you then of course, you will be much happier if you leave it. At any rate I hope the choices you make bring you happiness. Don't worry about the Mormons. Basic teachings of that church tend towards brotherly love, etc, etc. They are harmless because they are not aggressive. Putting up a temple is not an act of war and they tend to be O.K. with other churches. Best wishes to all. Please have a happy life.
I was a Mormon, and returned to my Roman Church. They created a God and Jesus that are more similar to Hindus than Christian. They only ~use the word Christian. The God and Chrst they believe in are not the same as you and I believe in.
Their God lives on Kolob, has above quintrillion wives he has sex with to populate his planets. Christ does the same and his brother is Satan. They DO NOT believe in Christ or God as we do. I was a Mormon.
You are right. Mormons do not believe in God and Christ 'as others do'; they believe that God and Christ each have their own bodies and that these two are separate beings. They believe that 'being one' means to be one in purpose. This belief is helpful to Mormons who can then aspire to 'being one' with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father because in order to do so they must become so Christ like that their actions would mirror the Redeemer's. This gives a sense of purpose and provides a goal for their lives. It would appear that believing Jesus and His Father are separate beings is less, rather than more like Buddha.(who is composed of many spirits) All hat aside, Mormons still accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and the Son of God. the reason others call them a cult is because they do not accept the concept of trinity (all in one God) as explained above. I still maintain the Mormons are harmless as they have no desire to convert anyone against their will or force others to believe as they do.They are O.K. with you deciding not to be a member of that church. again, if you believe the teachings of that Church are harmful to you, then of course you must leave it. But many Mormons find those teachings give them peace, help to raise their children, create charity and bring joy to life. I hope you have found those things in your life now.
Your view is incorrect. They do not believe in Christ and God as we, and never have. They smile as if they do, and know themselves that they do not. I was a Mormon and asked to have my records removed over theological issues. I served a Mission, went to the Temple, was EQ Teacher and Ward Clerk. They have no problem in not allowing parents to see their kids wedding in the Temple! Yes, they have a wonderful explanation for it, it looks great, but you cannot see it! The entity they worship is not our Christ, but a polygamous entity that is from another planet called Kolob. He and his father have wives without number, and have sex with them to populate the billions of worlds they created. This is one of Christs worlds. The Mormons are wanting to convert the weak and simple for their Church. You must give them 10% of your income or they do not let you go to the Temple and then to Heaven. You go to hell for not giving them your $$. To me, with my inside experience with them as a Mormon, Italy and our Mother Church need to be really careful with these less than open and honest guys. They lie to non members, they deliberately do not answer questions truthfully, and they obfuscate.
I am sorry that they chose you Italy. It was tactical on their part and not an accident.
Don, Las Vegas
Oh my. I think that church did not make you happy and so you choose to leave it. I hope you are finding peace now. I still do not think building a temple is an act of war but I understand you feel differently. You must do what you feel is right.
I noticed that you did not say anything about the beliefs of the Mormon Church. You ever so deftly skipped over it and said that I was "unhappy". I did not leave, not are tens of thousands of others leaving the Mormon Church in droves because we are "unhappy". We leave it because it is a big fake sales job, they are not a Christian Church. The Muslims believe in Christ, did you know that? But it is how they believe in him that gives them their individual and singular nature. The Mormons do not believe in Christ as we Christians do. They believe in a man called Christ that has countless wives (billions, quintillions??) of wives, and is the brother of Satan! After I did some research on Joseph Smith from credible outside sources...i found several conflicting versions of JS "First Vision". I found that there was no eternal marriage and much more in the Original Church that the Morons claim to be a restoration of!! How can you have a restoration of what never existed!! The Three Witness, and Salt Lake for their own benefit has covered this up with their own version, started another Church! The scrolls that JS translated were not found to be as he said! He said that it was from Abraham and the details were to be translated by him by the gift and power of God. It was a common burial scroll! Nothing more! JS did not know that we would be able to read and translate Egyptian later. We can, and he was wrong!
I left the Mormons because they are fake, a liar and what they teach is not now and never was true. Email me at wds at usa dot com if you want more info. They are a lie!
Don, las Vegas
Beautifully written!
I'm just sorry that Satan has reached in and grabbed the heart of this vicious VegasDon person. Such hate - there can be no love where there is hate. He is also very misinformed. He may have once been a member, and served a mission but sometimes people still do not learn. The things he writes are not truth.
I hope your life gets better man.
No satan. years of experience as a Mormon. I just wish you were more objective, and I pray to God that you become more logical and pragmatic. I pray that he will bless you so that you will have your eyes opened and see reality.
Unfortunately, VegasDon,most of what you have posted isn't doctrine. Nowhere in official LDS doctrine will you find that God lives on the planet Kolob. Nor will you see anything that insinuates that God has multiple wives which he engages sexually with. As a former member, I'm surprised you've bought into the falsehoods spread by Anti-Mormons.
Uh, your view is uninformed and incorrect. It is doctrine and that is why you know of it. Please, peddle your incorrect views elsewhere. What I stated is accurate and correct.
These are LDS Doctrines, and I can prove my point. Shall we, Get your "word games" sharpened if you respond. Led on MacDuff...
It is called Eternal Progression. God has countless wives, and they give birth to his spirit children. It baffles me how a physical body gives birth to a spirit! These are not falsehoods, but things you either did not take the time to learn, things you are denying for some reason, and it is most definitely LDS Doctrine. Jesus and Satan are brothers. I respect that you do not want to believe it, or that you were not / are not LDS long enough to learn it, but my statement is factual.
Don
I am specifically referring to your claims that God lives on Kolob and engages in sexual relations with his thousands of goddess wives. That is not true and if you actually were a Mormon at one point, you would know that. We believe there is most likely a "heavenly mother," but nowhere will you find anything official saying there are thousands of these goddesses. And your claim of the procreation of spirits via sexual means is unfounded. How spirits came to be remains a mystery. But if you were familiar with the teachings of Joseph Smith, you would know that he taught that spirits were immortal and have always been. We existed as "intelligences," prior to being organized as spirits, so your ideas, as I've already stated, are either mistaken or outright lies.
Sorry,
Your propaganda will not hold water. You had better go back and re-read your LDS Doctrines. You seem to sleep in class. There is a lot that you have missed in the constantly changing and morphing Mormon teachings. Tell me about "Adam God", "Blood Atonement", "Poligamy" and how it was changed and why...remember the Federal Troops entering UT.
Anyone can google these points to their own satisfaction Andrew.
Don in Vegas
Alright, then, if you claim we believe these things, show me. Quote from our the standard works of the church. Tell me where in our official doctrine these things are. Kolob, for example, read the Book of Abraham. It makes absolutely no mention of God living there. Nowhere in the Book of Mormon, D and C or Pearl of Great Price will you find that we believe Christ and God have thousands of wives. You are making claims that cannot be substantiated. But I'm willing to be enlightened here. Where will you find these beliefs in our "official," church doctrine?
Andrew,
If you are not aware of the Plan of Eternal Progression where man becomes a God, a God of his own planet, with countless wives... I don't know what to say to you. Polygamy in the next life, a man being sealed to one and as many as he wishes is the purpose of the Temple. This Temple they are building in Rome is an insult to actual Christians, of which the Mormons are not. If you are not aware of these things, of Kolob, of the Plan of Eternal Progression where Man becomes a God and calls his wife out of the grave via her temple name..... I truly feel sorry for you. I am not your Elders Quorum teacher Andrew. I cannot and will not teach you the Mormon teachings that are given in closed rooms. That is your responsibility, to whit you have failed. If you are ot aware of them then it is to your own detriment. Note, I am not backing down one inch. i just have trouble understanding how to communicate with you on something that you lack the basic points on. The things I stated are true and accurate teachings of the LDS Church. If you are persistent I will give these points to you out of your own belief system, but you will be embarrassed by your lack of information and ignorance.
Mormon Temples are pagan and no compliment to Rome.
I'm familiar with eternal progression My issue is with specific claims you made. Out doctrine does not state that God and Jesus have thousands of wives. Nor does our doctrine teach the notion of celestial sex. I know about Kolob, which the Book of Abraham claims is the star nearest to the throne of God. Nowhere does it say that God lives there.
Fact is, the above points are wrong, and are not contained within our scriptures. Nor is it taught, as you claimed, that you go to hell without paying tithing.
The fact that you believe the church teaches these things leads me to believe that you never were a member. But if you believe they are actual doctrine, direct me to a single scripture that claims God comes from Kolob, that Jesus is a polygamist. As a heads up, you won't be able to. You are showing still that you do not know or understand our beliefs.
Actually Andrew,
Its far worse than a thousand. The actual word used was "countless", that means innumerable...quintillions? If it can be counted it is not enough! I was trying ti be polite by stating only "thousands". It was said by a self appointed Prophet... you cannot disssagree with him when he speaks as the Profit, and he was.
If you do not give tithing and offerings to the Mormon Church you do not get to go to heaven. Thought string....If you do not give them your $$$ you are deemed unworthy for a temple recommend. Without a temple rec you cannot be sealed, do baptisms for dead people and participate in other weird Mormon things. Only people that have taken ou their endowments in the temple, gone thru the "veil" (big woop) sealed to their kids and wive(s) can go to heaven. That is LDS teaching. Maybe you are not aware of it. It used to be, and here is one of thousands of changes they made to be popular, you had to have plural marriage in the next life. Unless they have stopped that practice, and they have not stopped that practice, then..... well, its gets a lot more gross.
Andrew, you are not dealing with an idiot here. I am not anto Mormon, I am pro truth. The teachings, practivces and beliefs of the Mormons do it so well that people do not have to engage the Mormons, they do it for you!
If you continue this rant of falsehoods i will bring out more embarrassing things..like JS screwing minors, Brighams many wives, and Josephs philandering...all via historical record mind you. I can beat you with historical records and you can share your emotions at best. remember, you are wrong, a member of a cult, and going to hell when you die. There is a hell you know.
Publicly embarrass yourself some more please. Your views are just plain wrong, not accurate and are not true.
Don
I may not be dealing with an idiot, but I am dealing with someone who is spouting things that are not doctrine. I've challenged you to show me where in our scriptures these beliefs are found, and you cannot produce them. This kind of proves my point. The church's official stance is that we don't know if Jesus has/had any wives. Some leaders believe he did, others do not. And the only official document we have from the First Presidency that even makes reference to God having a spouse is Family: A Proclamation to the World, which says only that we are the spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents. That's it. For you to claim something else is highly disingenuous.
You are also incorrect in saying that without temple ordinances, you cannot get to heaven. Temple Ordinances are needed for Exaltation, not heaven. If you understood our beliefs about heaven, this would be evident. Certainly you are aware that there are three degrees of heaven within Mormon theology (telestial, terrestrial and Celestial). Furthermore, you should be aware that there are an additional three levels within the Celestial Kingdom. The only ordinances needed to enter the Celestial Kingdom are baptism and confirmation. The other ordinances ensure one's exaltation within the Celestial Kingdom.
I find it quite funny that you believe you are "embarrassing," me. You've made claims about our beliefs and when challenged to show these doctrines from our own scriptures, you cannot.
I'd also be careful about charging another religion with sexual malpractice. Coming from a Catholic, I find that highly hypocritical.
May I add, that your beliefs come fromj what you call "revelation". An example of revelation is back under Jimmy Carter the US Justice Department was going to pull the LDS Churches tax free status because they discriminated against Blacks. Then revelation came before the court order and Blacks were allowed to hold the Priesthood. Strange how court orders and the control of money will make God, who needs / uses neither, to respond to them as if he did! They decided to keep the tax free status over their Church sanctioned Jim Crow laws.
I just love revelation and tax free status...such a relationship!
I say this in the name of voluntary tithing, Amen.
Define "exaltation"...in the Celestial Kingdom and what goes on there, who they are, etc... If you miss-respresent or miss anything I will fill in the crack with the truth.
Don
You are mistaken on the ban on blacks and the reasons for why it was lifted. No such threat was made on the church's tax exempt status in regards to the ban. Nor is there any indication that it was in response to social or political pressure. If this had been the case, the ban would have been lifted much earlier, during the sixties when the civil rights movement was in full swing, or the very early seventies. Protests against the church's racial policy and more specifically, Brigham Young University had pretty much ended by 1971. Even non-Mormon scholars like Jan Shipps stated, "this revelation came in the context of worldwide evangelism rather than domestic politics or American social and cultural circumstances." Being a non-member, she doubts that it was an actual revelation, but refutes the idea that it came due to social or political pressure
Exaltation refers to achieving our fullest potential as children of God. The Bible tells us that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, that we will inherit all that the Father has. Exaltation refers to our ultimate salvation, dwelling eternally with our family and with God, possessing all the attributes of God, yet remaining subject to God as He will always remain greater than us.
I see that you did not supply doctrinal quotes for those claims you made that I challenged. Are you ready to concede that you were mistaken?
That is incorrect Andrew. Exaltation refers to actual becoming a God and not fullest potential.
I do not havew the tie or desire to deal with your garbage and dignify you with a "bash". You are not telling these people the truth, you are obfuscating. If you have a point, then YOU back it up with scripture from one of your four books , three more than the Bible.
Exaltation in the celestial Kingdom is actually becoming a God, and taught in the Mormon Church is the process that God went thru to become a GOd.
Stop lieing to these people. Remember, i was a Mormon as well
I also niticed that you did not send me a copy of your post...interesting!
Don, Las vegas
Nothing I said was incorrect. Exaltation refers to our divine potential, which is to become gods. I'm not ashamed of the doctrine, as it's also found in the Bible. What do you think it means to be a Son of God, an heir, a joint-heir with Christ? What is an heir? Someone who inherits something from another. And if we are an heir to God, then it stands to reason that we will inherit godhood. This in no way means that we will be equal with God, or replace Him. He will always be our God. Remember also what the Savior told his followers, that they were faithful over a few things, so he will make them rulers over many things. So the Bible says that we are Sons of God, His heirs, who will be given dominion over something. You can call it whatever you want, but it sounds a lot like godhood to me.
The deification of man is not even a uniquely LDS doctrine. In fact, many of the early Christians held this view, including Irenaeus, who stated, "We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods." Or "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is." I'm to take it that you believe Irenaeus to be a heretic, then. Clement of Alexandria had similar views, as did Origen. Are they all heretics?
You are mistaken, also to say that the church teaches that it was by this method that our God came to be as He is. This is not official doctrine and does not even exist outside of a stray comment made by Joseph Smith as part of a funeral sermon. There is no revelation recorded that supports this,nor is it found in our official canon This amounts to a religious theory, merely speculation and is not an official doctrine, though many Mormons do believe it.
I find it interesting that you say I should back up my claims, when you are the one making them. The onus is not on me to show that we don't believe something, but is instead on you to show that we believe those things which you claim we do. You claimed that Mormons teach that Christ was a polygamist, that God lives on Kolob with millions of wives, that one cannot get to heaven without a temple recommend. None of these things are true and I'm sure you know that. If you believe I am wrong, then show me from our official scriptures where these doctrines are found. You have failed to produce this 'evidence,' because it doesn't exist, and you claim I am lying. Do you see the irony here?
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Yo, Andrew,
we dissagree theologically. However, you must block and delete this spammer for your blog to remain relevant at any level. You are a sincere man, sincere and I do not want to see your blog to be overtaken.
Lorenzo Snow (1840)
"...from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity
to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to
exaltation ... until (they) arrive at the station of a God."
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and
>> sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If
the veil were rent today, and ... God ... (were) to make himself
visible ... if you were to see him today, you would see him like
a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and
the very form as a man."
He was speaking as the President, Prophet, Seer and revelator, and cannot be argues with as per LDS Doctrine.
-Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon
See: http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm
>>
A couple things here. First off, it is incorrect to say that one cannot disagree with a prophet, or to assume that every utterance of a prophet is official doctrine. In fact, Joseph Smith himself said that "a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such." Being a prophet does not mean you cannot have your own opinions or that everything you ever say is doctrine. Nor would a sermon given at a funeral (which is what you posted) be construed as an official act by Smith, especially considering that there are no first hand accounts of the sermon and he did not live long enough to expound on it.
Plus, you should agree with what Joseph Smith said anyways. Is it not true that Catholics believe Jesus Christ is God? And was he not once a man?
What you have posted are non-doctrinal statements that were never recorded as revelations and never identified as binding doctrines, never canonized in our scriptures. Therefore, as I've stated, this is not an official doctrine. What IS officially binding may be found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. As you probably know, this doctrine is not found therein and thus does not constitute the church's official position.
The first part of what you posted sounds an awful lot like the words of Irenaeus: "While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord." The doctrine of progression is laid out, a very similar position to that held by the renowned church father, Irenaeus.
He also stated this, "How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one's duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God"
And: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is."
What about the words of Origen: "The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God."
And st. Augustine, often considered one of the greatest church fathers, "but He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.
It is clear that the early church fathers agreed with the LDS position. I'm to assume, then, that you don't consider them true Christians either? And speaking of the deification of man, how would you interpret the scriptures that speak of becoming heirs of God, that we will be made rulers over many things? Would this not support the deification of man?
Allow me to congratulate you on spinning propaganda! You attempt to do it quite well, unsuccessful at it as you are. Mormon and the true Church that Christ set up, and the beliefs, practices and intents are divergent. Which is to say, different.
Allow me to cut to the chase, and leave the rest alone, if you will. We do not believe as you do. If we did then you would be Catholic and your beliefs would also make you heretic. You teach that man can becone a God. It is one of the reasons you have temples were the work is done, in your beliefs system, to make it possible. You avoid saying it here, but you DO believe that Mormons only, can become a God, just like our God. I was a Mormon, and that is your present theology. You attempt unsuccessfully, to weave it into Christian beliefs by making it look as if it is something it is not. You do not teach that man can ~progress and that is all that the plan of "Eternal Progression" is. You are not telling the truth and I have no problem on busting you on it. If you are unclear on your beliefs in this area I can ask other past Mormons to share your actual teachings with you as well. You are unsuccessfully attempting to create a cuddly kitten that is so sweet (advertising / propaganda) when in reality it is the teachings of a cult, that does not believe in the same Christ that the Christian world teaches of and worships. I notice that you use as an entrance a picture of the Holy Father with outstretched hands to an older person in your advertising here. You are not Catholic and the only reason you are doing that is to present a cuddly idea. You are a Saber Toothed tiger seeking who you may devour.
Andrew, you are trying deceiving these people, and no one is falling for it. Shall I ask other past Mormons to attend with us and comment ere as well here so that you may be clarified in your own cult and NON-Christian beliefs beliefs.
People of all faiths can think, reason and see. We see what you teach and that you are not of Christ, but of a multi-layered self created world of Gods, each owing reverence to its own God, all the way back before the Big Bang theory. You teach that each may become a God by paying 10% of their income to the Mormon Church, going to the Temple Regularly, and doing as they are told. And old teaching was that they must practice Polygamy in order to be a God. They changed that as the Federal Troops entered UT. They called it Revelation, I call it emergency management! Then they teach that you must practice polygamy in the next life so you can be a God and go to Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. Now, they are playing that down as people are finding out what you actually teach. It makes them screech and run the other way. No big beautiful building will change that reality. Yea, you'll get a few, but you will continue to loose millions as you are now. You simply are not a Christian group, but a cult.
Andrew, I am sincerely sorry that you are telling lies and fishing for people to convert to your cult.
Put new lipstick on the old pig Andrew, its still an old, ugly, snorting pig. You may believe it changes to a ...turkey, but truly Andrew, it is t just a pig.
I am going to keep it on the basics and watch you stretch your beliefs into anything but what it is so as to try to wash the foul taste of reality of what you are out of our mouths. I was a Mormon and served a Mission. I am fully aware, unlike some here, of what you are trying to do. I know what is taught and what you are obfuscating and why. You are lying to these people and I cannot and will not let you get away with it! Tell me if you want me to invite others that have left that will also disagree with you and you publicity attempts.
Visit www.lifeaftermormonism.net (just one of thousands of sites)from any point on the planet. Poke around, see what others that were Mormon think and experienced.
Don
So that we may have greater clarity,
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, hereafter CCC:
>
> 266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity
> and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or
> dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's
> is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father,
> Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty
> coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).
Don
I love how you "threaten" me with bringing in other ex-Mormons to show me where I am wrong. If they are as bereft of LDS doctrine as you appear to be, I have nothing to worry about. You can bring them in if you want to.
You are being entirely disingenuous in claiming that I am misrepresenting my position. Not once did I refuse to state that we believe in becoming gods. Look at my post from Nov. 23. I specifically stated that our fullest potential was to become gods. I also referred countless times to our doctrine of the deification of Man. I've stated our official position regarding the matter. You, however, seem incapable of discerning the LDS church's official doctrine with the individual opinions and speculations of leaders. The only 'doctrines,' that are binding upon its members are the ones found within the Standard Works, those which are officially canonized. And as I've mentioned numerous times, you have been entirely unable to show support for your claims with these sources. And referring to Man becoming Gods, I have shown scriptural support for the doctrine, and have also cited specific quotes from various church fathers, individuals, I understand, who are highly respected by the Roman Catholic Church, who also agreed with the idea of Man becoming gods. Yet you will not give an alternative interpretation to my scriptural references, nor will you state whether or not you think Irenaeus, Augustine and Origen are heretics and not Christian.
I have no idea what you are referring to about my picture being one of the Holy Father...my only involvement here is my posts addressing your charges. I don't have an account and I sign in as a guest. Nor am I attempting to convert anyone. My purpose for being here is to combat your gross misinterpretations of what Mormons believe, smearing them with things they don't actually believe. You are the one engaging in deceit, here.
And your charge that the LDS church is losing members by the millions is entirely unfounded and untrue. According to the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, the LDS church is by far the fastest growing Christian denomination in the U.S. From 2000 to 2010, the church increased its membership by 45 percent, higher than any other Christian group in both percentage and number of people. Evangelicals remained consistent during that period while mainline Protestants and Catholics decreased in membership. And if you need further confirmation, simply look at the rate at which new temples are being built around the world. They are being constructed because we need them to accommodate the rapid growth of the church. If we were really losing members, it would be lunacy to spend millions on new facilities.
And then you use the Cult label, the last attempt of a desperate and failing argument. Under what definition would we be considered a cult because nearly every definition out there would also include Catholicism, a religion that venerates body parts and prays to saints.
I appreciate your posting of the Catholic Catechism, but what I find interesting is that Mormons are often charged with not being Christian because we rely on documents outside the Holy Bible. But the entire doctrine of the Trinity as you have shown is wholly a product of a debate, the end result of which were non-biblical creeds stating non-biblical doctrines.
A
Why would bringing in people that left the LDS Church threaten you? You feel that building programs make something true! That is not even logical. My bank opened fifteen new branches in the state, are they inspired or the true bank? Give the mind games a damned break. UNLIKE YOU, WE CAN "THINK". Is it that they may also show you the error of your presentation? If you perceive truth and honesty from others to threaten you, the solid proof that you are telling lies to others here to impress them, then that is your decision, and feel that way if you choose. Feel as your conscience tells you to.
Thanks for those wonderful awe inspiring stats, but you still are not Christian. You still teach that man can become a God. Not positive potential as you unsuccessfully attempted to falsely represent, but God from the Old Testament type. You can attempt to toss out all this fluff and good image, but you do not believe in what you are trying so hard to present yourself as. Your faith, the LDS Church, is a cult that uses the name of Jesus, but the entity that you believe in is not the Jesus that the rest of the world knows and prays to. It is a creation of Joseph Smith and his mistranslated lies.
Sorry Andrew, you loose.
We view you as a cult, and the bad meaning of the word. Here is the definition of a Cult. Not a Church, but a cult...
n.
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.
An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
You have a Jim Jones style faith in your Prophet. "Follow the Prophet", "When the Prophet speaks the decision has been made"...... You have strange beliefs that are not found anywhere in the Christian world, ...which you are not a part of.
There are other meanings. and don't even go near that crap where you try to soften the word by trying to find ways to bring others into the parameters of the definition. We all know what a cult is, and the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day saints is one.
Keep going Andrew. You are wrong and you know it inside. And why are you pushing Mormon Temples with the earthly head of the Catholic Church on the front of your blog. In business that is called Bait and Switch.
Don
You misunderstand me. I don't feel threatened by bringing in ex-Mormons, I was scoffing at your assumption that threatening me with such would have any effect at all. You acted like I should be afraid of what they'll say. Truth be told, I've seen these ex Mormon sites and conversed with many of them. They are just as deceitful and wrong as you have proven to be. You also misread what I said regarding the rapid building of temples. If you look back at what I actually said, you'll see that I used the fast growth of temples, not to prove the validity of the church, but to refute your idea that the church was losing membership, since it defies logic to build more building and expend vast amounts of money if there are less and less members.At no point did I say there was a correlation between the rapid rate of temple building and the truthfulness of the LDS church.
You also realize that merely stating that I "lose," does not make it so, don't you? How can you claim victory when you have not refuted any of my points. I've shown time and again that you have misinterpreted our beliefs yet you continue to peddle your own ideas of what you 'think' the church teaches. I don't even blame you for not refuting them. It's pretty hard to argue your position when there is no evidence to support it.
Also, how have I mislead people on my position regarding the deification of Man? I've plainly stated that this is what we believe. I don't know what you mean by God of the Old Testament type, but I can state that our belief in becoming gods does not in any way demean our God. As the Bible states, there are gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God. This is an unmitigated fact. We will always be subject to our father in heaven and will always be lesser than him. But if believing in becoming Gods means you are not a Christian, would you please address the quotes I posted earlier regarding the church fathers? I take this statement to mean that you DON'T believe Augustine, Origen and Ireneous were Christian. Am I right in assuming this?
Thank you for posting the definition of a cult. This here illustrates the problem with attempting to label the LDS church a cult. By using any known definition, you would fall under the same banner. The first definition does not apply to us because we do not live in 'unusual situations,' under an authoritarian, charismatic leader. We do fall under the other definitions, but so does Catholicism. So you admit that Catholics belong to a cult. Good to know.
Jim Jones style faith? Are you kidding me? Tell me the last time Thomas S. Monson convinced a group of people to kill themselves. I like also you you support this assertion by quoting something from a 1940s magazine, out of context and published without approval of the General Authorities of the church. Our religion does not encourage blind faith. As President George Albert Smith said, "I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts." As you can see, the church encourages you to think for yourself. And you are not punished for having some disagreements. I didn't agree with the church's involvement in Prop 8 and my bishop knew that. I was in no way subject to church discipline. In fact, the First Presidency specifically stated that one does not need to agree with the church on this issue. So once again, we see you misinterpreting what Mormons actually think. I find your comments regarding our reverence for our prophet to be quite hypocritical when your church not only parades dead body parts of former popes around the world to be praised (a horrendous, creepy and disrespectful practice, by the way). Is it also the custom to kneel in front of the pope and kiss his ring? This might be hard for you to understand, but you exhibit a mentality towards your leader that many would consider cult-like.
I still have no idea what you're talking about with your bait and switch comment. I don't have a blog here. I came across this comment page while researching the Rome temple. I don't keep a blog.
Mountain Meadows....
Only "I" can put words in my mouth. Your first paragraph is inaccurate.
What Pope body parts shave been paraded around the world? You may have a faulty source of information because no one person could be that much of a nave. Old European signs of personal respect die hard. I have no problem with kissing the Popes ring. Since you will never do it, whada ya care? Its not a theological issue.
Mountain Meadows Massacre....Mormons under the direct word of Mormon leaders killed people leaving the valley in wagons going to CA. They blamed it on the Indians. The LDS Church still treads softly here for legal reasons...they did it.
Re the Blog....Sorry, my mistake. You seem to be so sold on your ideas that I thought you had a proprietary interest in this blog. Entirely my miss-perception. ~Mea culpa.
However, your verbal gymnastic, very good mind you, over the word --cult does not change the fact that you do not believe in the same Jesus Christ "WE" as Christians do. call it a french fry if it makes you happy. You do not believe in Christ and none of you Mormons are going to Heaven. If your lucky you might make "Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom" where you will be a God over other planets and galaxies procreating with countless (quadrillions) of wives. I do most definitely know my Mormon Doctrine.
Only Christians can go to heaven. It is a fact, sad as it might make you feel to hear. You do not believe in Christ.
Don
Mountain Meadows? That's the best you've got? A massacre that occurred in the 1850s and for which there is no evidence that it was condoned by church leadership? The same massacre that Brigham Young attempted to halt via letter, which, unfortunately, arrived too late?
I don't see the relevance here anyways. If you want to start talking about atrocities committed by our respective religious organizations, to see which has been more bloodthirsty, I'm pretty sure your would come out on top. Inquisitions? Crusades? Leaders who systematically ordered the killing of any group of people that did not fall in line with them? It is beyond me how any Catholic can criticize another religions sordid past when there is just so much within your own histories.
We do in fact believe in the Christ of the Bible. It's actually Catholics who do not, Catholics who relied on extra-biblical documents to define Christ, presided over by those with political agendas. We believe Christ when he said he is the son of God. Catholics reject this and believe that He somehow shares the same substance as the Father (which is nowhere in the Bible.)
I am also unaware of God appointing you judge over our salvation. On what authority do you purport to pass condemnation on an entire people? Is this what your church teaches you? I'm sure you must know that judgment is reserved for God alone. We are Christians by every definition of the Word, and we rely on none save Christ for our salvation. You have once again shown your ignorance regarding this matter.
And you most certainly do NOT know your Mormon doctrine. So wrong have you been, I don't even think you ever were a member. Your charges read like those lists you find on numerous Anti Mormon sites throughout the internet. As an example, where is it stated in our official doctrine that we will 'procreate,' with quadrillions of wives? If this is an official doctrine, surely it must be recorded somewhere. So...where is it? Which section of the Doctrine and Covenants is it in? What book of the Book of Mormon? Where is it in the Pearl of Great Price? Hint: it's not in there, and you are engaging in the highest form of deceit by claiming this is taught.
I'm still waiting on whether or not the Church Fathers are 'not going to heaven,' also. They agreed with the Mormons on Man becoming God. Strangely, you've been entirely silent on this matter.
As for body parts, is it not Catholic tradition to display relics? In the middle ages, was it not mandatory to display at least one relic in every church? It's common knowledge that you display body parts of past Saints and the like...I don't know why you're denying this. Nor does it change the fact that it is inappropriate, creepy, and shows the Catholics to be exhibitors of stronger cult actions than Mormons. And your admission that you would kiss the Pope's ring (most likely bowing to him as well) reaffirms this. Do you know what I'd do if I were to meet the current Prophet, President Monson? I wouldn't bow, or kiss a ring. I would greet him amicably, and shake his hand. Monson is not above me in God's eyes for him and I hold the same priesthood. Reverence and respect for a Holy Man is one thing, but when that reverence borders on worship, it becomes something else.
You are an immature propagandist that cannot hold up the informational and intellectual end of your argument.
Believe in your Mormon cult garbage in your brainwashed fashion. I feel as if I am talking to the god. There is a response, but nothing intellectual. I have better things to do than associate with a fool. You have a great day, and try to "think".
DON
arse, you said that we traipsed the bodies of Popes around. A relic is different, hahaha. Know what you are speaking of before you open thy mouth, and maybe "think twice and speak once'. rotfl, ...I am so sorry, but you are doing yourself no favors.
You got the relic thin wrong as well, consistent with past form, OMG, rotflmao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Wx230gYJw
Don
I can't keep up my end of an intellectual discussion? Really? I've debunked every one of your bogus claims and called you out on your deceit and have challenged you to provide evidence for what you claim. You cannot. You have utterly failed at what you attempted to do, and in frustration, you post an almost incoherent rant about Propaganda, whether than address the issues at hand. I know it's difficult to be bested in an argument, but you ought to have the good graces to know that you were wrong on much of what you said.
As for relics: THe definition:
An object surviving from an earlier time, esp. one of historical or sentimental interest.
A part of a deceased holy person's body or belongings kept as an object of reverence.
Fact of the matter is, you believe in keeping around dead body parts for reverence, and it's still creepy.
One more things;
I know you desperately want to believe what you have posted, but even a cursory reading of LDS scriptures will prove you wrong on nearly all counts. You have charged me with being a propagandist, which is an untrue statement as I have done nothing but state our official opinion. Your problem, though, is that what we actually believe does not match what you read off Anti-Mormon sites. And then to compound the matter, when I challenge you for proof to back up your claim (which is the accepted method of debate, make a claim and give supporting evidence) you get mad and accuse me of spreading propaganda. If I am wrong in what I've stated regarding the LDS church, why are you so afraid to prove it? Why have you refrained from posting scriptures that support your claims? Is it possibly because they don't exist? So next time you want to engage in a theological discussion, make sure that one, you know what you're talking about and two, make sure that the person you're debating is not more knowledgeable than you are.
And your lack of an answer to by previous inquiry is telling. You do in fact believe that Origen, Irenaeus and Augistine are not Christians and they are going to hell. Because Mormons are heretics for it. So either both Mormons and church fathers are heretical, or neither are.
Andrew,
Some of the questions are silly, as this one is. People do not need to recoil just because you bark. I will decide what I believe and you will not, clear? The only thing that me not answering your silly question is telling is that it is a useless and silly question. "YOU" do not control my side of the argument, I control that, clear again?
I find you to ge arrogant. You want to win and not discuss. Your faith believes that its members can become Gods, and that is the purpose of the temples. Furthering your cancerous belief is the purpose of your temples and the one that pollutes Rome soon. Andrew, you may not even know how far you have been deceived. Either you were lied to regarding the Mormon faith by the Mormons or you were lied to by the Mormons. I hope it is the first option. I am not backed into corners in the least by your silly arguments, and they are silly. I am fully aware of what you believe and I see your weaknesses theologically. remember, I left your faith and happily ran back to the Catholic faith.
Sorry that you love to argue so much. Its really an inefficient use of valuable time and energy. I'll let you stew in your own juices as I have more to accomplish. We have four Mormon families that are returning to the Catholic faith. They have come back to Mass, and sent in their letters of resignation to Salt Lake. All told, hundreds of families are returning back to the Church that Jesus founded this three month period. And all are sending in letter to resign. This can all be done by fax and email now as well. If a person was ever baptized LDS they must send in a resignation letter and not just stop attending.
I will share how they can resign and how easy and quick it is in a future post here. Them cleaning themselves up is quick and easy. Its as easy as leaving a bank or credit card company. It is immediate as well. Did you know that a person can even walk into their Church court and hand them the letter resigning and there is nothing Salt Lake can do but accept the letter and respect their wished as stated in the letter! I assist hundreds and hundreds of people in doing just this every week, and the number of people searching me out is getting larger and larger! I'll post more on it here Andrew.
Pax Vobiscum, Don
Leaving the LDS Church is a requirement if you were actually ever baptized. Just as there is a formal requirement to join there is a just as easily achieved action needed to leave. And you are no longer a member, its that easy.
This information is valid worldwide and your resignation is effective immediately. I personally suggest the fax or email option. You may enjoy the bebefits of using your choice.
This quick and easy action is achieved in three ways. First is email, second is via fax and third is a letter mailed to Salt Lake. Your address is needed so that they will be able to mail you the confirmation letter to frame and hang on the wall in pride. I did! :)
When emailing to have your records removed email your name, address an ward to msr-confrec@ldschurch.com . They will be happy to assist you and to follow your request.
Fax is also available. Fax your request, again with your name, address and ward to the United States at 801-240-1565. Send it "Attention: Name removal". They'll be happy to assist you in this fashion as well.
Or, the slowest and still functional way is to mail a letter. You do NOT need to mail it to your local Branch President or Bishop any more. Just mail it to Salt Lake. When Salt Lake receives it a clock starts, so to speak. Even f it sits in the Bishops car or on his desk, Salt Lake will follow thru on your request in 60 days due to recent court orders in the US and
the LDS Church's desire to follow them. They have been sued and lost over the treatment in the past of people that ask to leave. Now, they do not even come out to the house anymore or announce your removal in church anymore! et right on it. You tell them what to do and they get on it FAST!
Send your letter to: Confidential Records, LDS Church, 47 E S Temple St, Salt Lake, UT. 84150. Salt Lake will recognize your letter and forward it to the local Bishop for him to remove the records. Salt Lake asks that members requests to have their names removed be respected and to not visit you. This was also called harassment in a lawsuit probably. They did not change it for nothing!
Tell them your name, address, and the ward your records might be in. They have to send you a letter recognizing your records removal. This is a quick easy process and is really no more than hitting the back space key to clear out information.
You can do this on your own and its fast. You will feel so much better when you have the LDS monkey off your back. No more guilt trips, power plays, thought controll.... Get it done now, you'll be glad you did. :)
Don
By silly questions, do you mean questions you have no answers for? How is it silly to request you provide proof for your claims? How is it you can decide that we are not Christian based on a doctrine held by church Fathers, and then refuse to answer this charge?
You're right. I can't control your side of the argument. Unfortunately, you don't have an argument to make. You posted a bunch of lies and misrepresentations of what we actually believe. And then when someone calls you on it, rather than defend these so-called facts, you cry, "those are silly questions so I won't answer." You are not showing the least little ability in debate.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the church that Christ established. It is a shell of what once was. There is no apostolic authority found therein. There is so much wrong with Catholic doctrine starting with the absurd unbiblical idea of the Trinity, to the rosary, to the praying to saints. You have no apostles to lead your church, instead you rely on the man-made office of Pope for guidance.
No one lied to me about the Mormon church. I know it's true, beyond a doubt. Through experiences too sacred to recount here, I have this knowledge. Your arguments do nothing to change that, especially as they're incorrect and have been shown to be incorrect. Perhaps I am a bit arrogant, a character flaw I'd rather not have. But it is hard to stay level-headed when people make outlandish claims about our faith, despite the mountains of evidence against what they say.
I have no idea what relevance the process for leaving the Mormon church is. I know people do this and it is a terrible thing that so many people are leaving Christ's church for an apostate copy. I also know that if you are assisting so vociferously in their departure, that you have a great deal to answer for come Judgment. Of course, I'm sure you think you're doing a service to them...
Thats' all very nice. Now, stop bothering others with your blathering.
You are a member of a cult. You do not believe in Christ, but some hybrid that bears no resemblance to the traditional Christ. Your Book of Abraham that JS translated by the gift and power of God (you say) has been proven a miss-translation and is not as JS said it was. We can now, thanks to the Rosetta Stone read hieroglyphs. We know what they wrote just as you rad this I an writing now. It is not what JS said it was. It is equal to a letter from your mother and you present it to your friends as a bank statement. The Doctrine and Covenants is the same. The Book of Mormon (BOM) never happened. The BOM purports that the population went from the south to the north. Unarguable science proves through genetics that it is the opposite, it developed from the north to the south. Not "close your eyes and envision things that are not real", but "science".
At some point, in all our lives, you have to put down your superstition, your strange ability to redesign reality and create a world of wishes. Are you going to believe what someone else told you, that someone told them, etc... or what your own damned lying eyes see! I can provide you links to historical references from people that knew JS personally. It contains their views, their experiences, and how he used them. He was a philanderer, historical reference mind you. Of course you will not agree because it does not agree with your created mental image. But, it is reality. It is not anti anything. It is from the people that ~knew him personally~ and NEVER via the LDS publicity department. Have you shared with these people that before we had a national currency each state had theirown currency and JS was jailed for forging the currency to pay for his planed "Jim Jones" trip out west!? You will not share that with them, but you will share the silly things with them. You want converts, their required 10% of their income, ....... and more.
I operate several websites and work on the internet. I will create an e-sheet with links to these historical references and it will be free via an auto-responder. They send any email to the email address and it comes back to them free and instantly. (well, ok, maybe 20 seconds :) All they do is email from anywhere in the world, and it comes back to them. Since I am multi-lingual I will even make it in several languages. (English, German, Spanish and I'll even do it in Latin) And I know some guys that left the Church that are Italian, so we have that language as well...fittingly, huh. :)
The Mormon Church has people going inactive faster than they baptize them. People need to know how to officially leave. THAT is the relevance on how to leave.
OK, I have to go.
Don
Don
You want me to stop blathering? Is that code for "I can't keep up with your argument, so would you please be quiet because you're making me look foolish?" Stating facts and challenging your lies is not blather, but I can see from your comments and your inability to take me on with any of these issues shows on your part a profound lack of ability to defend your argument. I would like to know seriously, what you take issue with regarding my statements. I would also like to know why, if you are so sure you are right, you absolutely refuse to show evidence that supports you. Are you aware even that you have been incorrect, or do you still stand by your ridiculous assertions?
I see you insist on calling us a cult. And I'll ask again, under what definition do you label us as such? You posted a definition of cult, attempting to label us as such, while also condemning yourself as one. So is there some other definition you now want to try since your last was a colossal failure? And how do we not believe in Christ? He is the sole reason for our worship? It is in fact the Mormons who worship the Biblical Jesus. Catholics believe in some made up one that was voted on in Ecumenical councils long after Christ's death. The Trinity is a man-made doctrine and to believe in such is to call Christ a liar when he said that He is the Son of God.
Your comments on both the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon DNA show how ignorant you are of LDS doctrines and beliefs, furthering my suspicions that you were never a member. First off, most of the papyrus scrolls were destroyed in a fire, so they cannot be confirmed or debunked. But even so, understanding how the Prophet Joseph Smith translated things makes it a moot point, even if the scrolls are not literally written by Abraham. Often times a physical item like a scroll would serve as a catalyst for a revelation (such as when he translated a lost document by John the apostle by simply reading the Bible). Regardless, it is indisputable that he was a prophet and that the Book of Abraham is authentic. How it came to be does not change that fact.
Your DNA claims are absurd as well as the Book of Mormon never makes any claims that contradict what you're saying. We believe that a relatively small number of people came over from Jerusalem, but that there were already people living in this continent. We do not claim that the Nephites or Lamanites were the only inhabitants here, so again your claim is unsubstantiated.
Your constant lies and misinterpretations are growing tiring and you are looking more and more incompetent as time goes on. Why don't you simply admit that you were wrong and that you accepted anti-Mormon propaganda wholesale. Perhaps you could preserve some semblance of dignity if you do.
Google Mormon Polygomy: Your Tax Dollars at Work...Written by Flora Jessop who escaped from the FLDS...Mormons will say No...but their so called "books" state that God commands that Polygamy will be reinstated when Mormons take over. Read the article. Also, read the thousands of articles written by Mormons who have found out the REAL truth, and have gotten away..losing Everything by doing so....Google: "Recovery From Mormonism" In many parts of Utah and Idaho...if you are not Mormon, they will shun an upstanding, kind and wonderful "Christian" family. Your kids will have NO friends if you don't convert. You will be driven out! Also google How the "Mesa Arizona" local government is controlled there by the Mormons and read stories of normal folks who have lived there and left or driven out. This is NO joke. They will lie to protect this from getting out!!!!
Scripture to ponder: John 8:24 John 8:58 John 10: 30-33 Isaiah 44:6 then go to 2 Peter 1:1 John 1:1 The living word of God, Fully God and yet Fully Man. Humans will never agree on religion until the final days...we are still so primitive that only an act of God will silence the world. Maybe invaders of another galaxy could even pull mankind together "briefly"...sad but true.
Even aliens cannot stop Mormons from contorting ideas and twisting things to fit their self serving ends. :) I just a personally offended when someone obviously does not tell the truth, they attempt unsuccessfully to try to make the other one look bad instead of telling the truth about the practices of Polygamy, man becoming a God, and even openly call the Catholic Faith "The Great Whore of the Earth" amongst themselves in private conversation. They then attempt to hide and say that it is not doctrine, when it is, in fact, LDS belief! They are just embarrassed to let others know it and deny it any way possible. Mormons are fleeing the LDS Church like roaches scurrying in a kitchen when the lights come on. And they deny it! Do your own research, use Google and you will fall out in the floor when you see what they are doing, and denying it as they do it! I was a Mormon and know factually of what I speak.
There you go again, VegasDon. You claim it is offensive when people don't tell the truth, so why do you keep doing it? I have successfully rebutted your ridiculous claims time and again. And now you're putting forth additional false claims that the Catholic church is considered the "Whore of the earth," by Mormons. This is obviously not true. In the 1950s, former Apostle (then a seventy) named Bruce McConkie published a book titled "Mormon Doctrine," and he made such a claim, which was his own opinion. But as it did not reflect LDS thinking, the First Presidency made him remove such references in subsequent editions. So again, a claim made with literally no evidence.
And I'm assuming you're referring to our conversation when you claim that they "are not telling the truth about polygamy, man becoming God, etc." Why do you lie? You can read our conversation. I never denied anything. I even claimed that man becoming God can be supported by the Bible. You claim again that Mormons are fleeing the church. A basic search will show that it is one of the few Christian religions whose numbers are actually going up, whereas Catholics and Evangelicals are losing membership. I gave you the stats, to prove it, even cited my source, something that you are unwilling to do to support your claims. If all these things you say about us are in fact doctrine, as you just said, prove it. Where are these doctrines found in official church scripture?
You were never a Mormon. Your claims read as though you found a list of claims off an Anti-Mormon site and are copying and pasting them here. No one who was a member would believe the ridiculous things you've said because they aren't true, and you know they aren't, or you'd give support for them.
Indeed, quite ironic from a guy who thinks 'not telling the truth,' offensive.
Great and Abominable Church "The Whore Of All The Earth" Synonymous with "Whore of Babylon" Doctrine of Covenants 86:3. According to BOM the Great and Abominable Church was formed soon after the life of Jesus...revalation of JS.....Hmmmmm...Who was JS talking about then??? Look At JS History1:18-20 also Nephi 14:9 (cf 13:5-8 26-34 14:3 10-17 22 13-14. Absolutely referring to the Catholic Church. Mormons have been revising and revising and revising over the years...Shameful and being found out around the world. Also check out "Remnant Church of LDS. They count the DEAD and Newly Dead as Members too once Baptised without consent!!! Sinful
OOps, I stand corrected, the numbers of baptized after death are Not counted,however the names of members who have chosen to leave many times are not removed from membership. Some interesting reads:Testimony of Jim Whitefield, Testimony of Simon G. Southerton,. I do pray that the Mormon's eyes are opened. God Bless.
That's ok anon.,
Mormons spend so much time denying their beliefs, playing word games, saying "Christ" meaning their usage and not your understanding, and so much more that no one would know anyhow. This guy here in the group says that Mormons do not teach that you can be a "GOD", when that is the basic and most fundamental function of the Temples. We say Christ as Christians and we know what we all mean. They take that unity of understanding, foist themselves into the fray and never tell you that they do not have the same usage as you and I. They are in reference to a man, that now has a physical body, that procreates as we speak with trillions of wives, is now a "GOD", and is brother to Satan. They do not tell people a lot as they try to convert them. Its covered up by calling it "milk before the meat". They tell you the good stuff later, and lie to you right now.
So, when a Mormon says something, in defense of ANY view, their words are very suspicious and have little to no credibility. THie missionaries are unwelcome where ever they go, ...usually at dinner time.
Don, Las Vegas
To Anonymous: you are placing your own assumptions that the Great and Abominable church is considered the Roman Catholic Church, while giving no official sources to support your assertion. The First Presidency has routinely stated that the Great and Abominable church is not a reference to any specific denomination or religion. Individual members, like McConkie, erroneously believed this, but it is not the official position of the church, nor is it taught by church leaders, whether they're general authorities of local leaders. The Great and Abominable church is officially defined by the LDS as any organization or group who are set up to oppose Jesus Christ. Nowhere in our scriptures is the Catholic church singled out, so to claim otherwise is simply a lie.
To VegasDon:I see you are up to your same tricks of throwing out spurious, unfounded charges with nothing to back them up. You said that I am denying that we teach that we can become gods, which is a lie. Read my response from Nov. 23rd, where I said this, "Exaltation refers to our divine potential, which is to become gods." That certainly doesn't look like I'm denying the teaching. In fact, I stated it outright. I also said that the Bible supports such a claim. So now we have proof that you lied.
And I see also that you are back to claim that we think Christ is procreating with thousands of wives. And though I know you will duck and dodge here, but I'll try it again, where is your proof? Where can this doctrine be found? WHy do you keep claiming things that are not so? You keep insisting on this point, and if you really think we believe this, why? Point me to an official church source that teaches this. If you cannot, you will again be shown as a liar, attempting to deceive the people on here.
Andrew, you are looking foolish. Learn when to sit down and be quiet to save some face. My proof is from decades of Mormon teachings in Elders Quorum, knowing the Mormon Plan of Eternal Progression, etc... Anyone can google for these things as you are telling lies.
Your views are immature and impish.
Don, Vegas
Please explain how I am looking foolish when it is you who has been caught in lie after lie. Every claim you made, I refuted. I gave scriptural and historical support for my views, and you refuse to because you know of the weakness of your position. And saying Elder's Quorum is not an answer. The Elder's Quorum has a set curriculum that is taught, you can buy the manuals from LDS.org. They are not hidden teachings, anyone can purchase these manuals and see what's being taught. Right now, this year's book is "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow." I challenge anyone to read through this manual to see what is actually taught in Elder's Quorum meetings.
You were never told that God had millions of wives in your priesthood classes. If you were, then the Quorum president was in error and speaking about things he knows nothing about. Just because some member says something doesn't mean the whole church is bound by it. Our official doctrine is layed out in our standard works, The Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. They represent binding doctrine. If we really believe the things you say we do, then they would be found in these volumes of scriptures. I'll offer the challenge again, show me where they are. Show me an official publication from the leaders of the church that says God and Jesus are polygamous, or that the Catholic Church is the Great and abominable church, or any number of your bizarre claims. Somehow, I doubt you'll attempt this because they don't exist. You'll hide behind name calling, attempting to defile my character, while never addressing my points.
And when I ask for support, stating the name of a class and a doctrinal principle does not constitute proof. You need to show documentations, scripture verses, official publications, Ensign articles. You've refused to because you know that I am right and that they aren't available. I would exhort any who read this to actually do your own research on these topics rather than listen to the deceitful sayings of VegasDon. LDS.org has plenty of information about our beliefs, as well as an archive of speeches and lectures given by church leaders. fairlds.org deals with much of what he has claimed and offers great refutations and corrections on these points.
You are telling lies to people and I will not do your footwork. Either that or you are a frigin idiot. People can google for the information themselves. They do not have to believe you. You believe that God and Christ have countless (more than my conservative number)wives that they procreate with to create spirit babies. Christ and Satan are brothers, and you still practice plural marriage in the next life. You show us where you do not believe these things I stated. Show us where it is officially denied, "Officially" denied. We all know you are a member of a weird cult, and you have this little twitch over it as well.
I would like to see where you get your information. You are either a fake or a liar. You prove yourself either way. I think your view is uninformed, and you are an idiot.
Um, how am I supposed to prove that we DON'T believe these things? If our scriptures contained everything we don't believe, there would be no end to them. You can't prove a negative. Why would that even exist? Are you expecting everything we don't believe to be specifically designated as such? Why don't you prove that you don't worship a jar of tomato juice? If you can't produce from your own scriptures anything that refutes this idea, then it must be true. Am I following your logic here?
The reason you don't want to do the legwork is because you know you'll come up empty. It's not my legwork anyways. You made the claims, you stated that we believe these things. The responsibility of proving it rests with you. I'll even make it easy for you. Go to LDS.org, and at the top, click on Scriptures. Then select which book you want to look in, and type into the search box a specific key work or phrase. Surely typing in God's wife, or Jesus married will yield some results if we actually believe these things. Your claim that they procreated to create spirit babies can be disproven, though, if you study the words of the prophets. Joseph Smith taught that the soul of man is eternal, that it has always existed. We do not believe in immaterial matter, so in essence, since our souls are composed of matter, they must have always existed since matter cannot be created or destroyed. Smith also taught that we existed as "intelligences," prior to God organizing us as spirits. The following is from Teachings of Presidents of the church: Joseph Smith, p. 210: "“Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle.
It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about
it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are
susceptible of enlargement.
“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God
himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because
he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby
the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."
See that, intelligence is eternal, we were fashioned from intelligence. The Spirit is eternal, without beginning or end. How could God and His wife create through sexual means that which has always existed? So at least on this point, it's obvious that you are wrong. Notice also how I actually sited my source, I named the book and even gave you the page number. That is the correct method when attempting to establish your point as valid. Making an outlandish claim and expecting me to give proof to refute it is not how you debate.
I can see your true colors coming out as well. I defeat you handily in our debate and you resort to name calling, which I accurately predicted. Tell me, how am I an idiot because you refuse to support your opinions? It seems as though you may have that backwards. Any intelligent debater would first ensure that what he is saying is true, then give proper citations so we know he's not just making it up. My sources are historical documents, official publications of the church, the scriptures, words of the general authorities, all of which I have quoted from extensively in our discourse. I use official sources whereas you use no sources, yet I'm the idiot, apparently.
I'll make the same request you made of me...where are your sources?
People can research and will find out for themselves.f. Don't get arrognt Junior. I am just tired of dealing with your damned verbosity, lying and stupidity.
This is no debate, don't complement yourself. You are a fool, as your responses show. You will fight over a stick in the road and call it an iron rod. Andrew, you are a fool. Your faith teaches man can become a God, that Satan and Christ are brothers, you used to teach that there were some sins that even Christ could not cover. You had to die for them. I encourage everyone to go google for these things themselves. I do not debate you because you have some superior knowledge and I am afraid. I choose not to because them I will look as damned stupid as you are. Believe as you choose, but know that no one respects the Mormons and you are viewed as fools following an idiot. Its a bit like avoiding a person that is dirty or smelly. That stuff is just smelly and it is such a negative experience. Finally, humble yourself. Humility is very important, and you lack it. Give credit to Joseph Smith for all you want. I hang my hat on the real Jesus Christ. Now, go bother someone else...looser.
WARNING: TROLLS.
I have been watching this thread since the article was posted.
VegasDon, you are a big troll.
You respond to polite people with insults and talk trash. And you act as though you speak on behalf of all Catholics! You claim to be an ex-mormon, but you try to conflate mormon pop-culture with mormon doctrine and slander from anti-mormon web sites. Every post you make just makes you look dumber and meaner. I'm sure your fellow Catholics are just cringing at your terrible manners. In fact, here's how you describe the Pope:
"The Pope is an individual that has his own views. He HAS to say that the temple in Rome is ok. I am also an individual that does not have the restraints that the Holy Father has."
So, unlike the man you believe has the Authority of God on Earth , you can say whatever you want. How arrogant! I think the Pope can say whatever God wants him to say. I'll bet the Holy Father would think you are pretty rude, trying to put words in his mouth, and speak for him. You write him off as a politician when he's the spiritual leader of your church!
I doubt you were ever mormon, and I doubt you are even a practicing Catholic. You probably met some mormon missionaries once, and were raised in a Catholic family but never attend Mass. I know lots of Mormons and Catholics quite well, and you don't sound like either. Sincere religious people are usually respectful, whereas you are full of insults and arrogance. You sound like a teenager who just discovered the internet. People reading your comments are either embarrassed for you or outright laughing at you.
FYI.
Well, VegasDon, I can see by my response that you lack the critical thinking skills to keep up with my argument. And left with no other recourse, you again resort to name calling, then have the audacity to judge me for my shortcomings. I'm particularly amused that you think me the fool here. Last I checked, I was the only one of us that actually offered facts, that stated information from sources outside my own delusions. You claimed that God created us through sex, I refuted that idea by quoting Joseph Smith himself. You said the church is losing membership, I refuted that by posting third party statistics that say otherwise. You say we have to agree with the prophet on every point, I quoted from President George Albert Smith that says the opposite. And when I invite you to support your arguments, you dodge the question, refusing to state where these doctrines are found. And I'm the fool? Surely you must realize the ridiculousness of this line of thought. This is akin to the kid that gets pantsed in front of his class and tries desperately to convince the kids that are laughing at him that they are the ones who look foolish. And that's exactly what this is. You've shown yourself to any readers here that you are a vociferous liar, spreading deceit and falsehoods, and a complete imbecile regarding theological matters.
The logic you employ for not engaging me in debate doesn't even make sense. How would you look more foolish by proving me wrong than refusing to support your assertions? Wouldn't it benefit your position if you could actually point to a verse in the Doctrine and Covenants that shows that we believe God has quadrillions of wives? Do you even see how ridiculous it is to throw out inflammatory charges then completely refuse to tell where you got this information? Tell me, you say that I am sounding even more stupid and foolish as I go, but what exactly have I done but state my position, with FACTS? How is it stupid to refute your stupic claims?
I fully welcome people to do their own research. Again, LDS.org is chock full of our doctrine, lectures from leaders and pdfs of our scriptures and teaching manuals. Mormon.org is there for this investigating the faith, and goes into the basics. And anyone who actually does their own research will see you as the fraud you are, a man who has been caught in lie after lie, who makes spurious claims then demands that we debunk them, while refusing himself to give even the least shred of evidence. I think the problem is that you were so sure that Mormons thought and believed as you initially claimed, believing in the words of the church's enemies. But when you start talking to someone who knows infinitely more than you or them, you are at a complete loss because you are presented with the reality that what you originally thought is based on...nothing. What we actually believe exists outside this fictional paradigm that you invested in and you are mad about it. If you simply admit that you were wrong and that you believed in any rumor of the church that crossed your path, I'm sure all would be forgiven. Yes, I come off as arrogant, but at least I'm arrogant with the truth. You also are arrogant, but your arrogance is embedded within a field of noxious lies.
Your impression is self serving. People need to go to an unbiased source for their information on the Mormons. The site that you shared is run by the Mormons and will not be unbiased. Use Google, Bing or any other source. That is much safer and better than going to the companies press office to get info on... the company.
Andrew, I am not afraid of you, nor do I believe that you know infinitely more on anything. I do see you as arrogant and pampas tho. When others do not care to be around you it is not that you are so holy and they feel inferior. It is usually because of a reason. You are brainwashed. You lack reason and cannot think critically. If Joseph Smith said that the sky was green and the grass was blue with clouds you would think the rest of us were wrong and ignorant for feeling as we do, and not as you do. I just do not care to get to deeply involved with your stupidity. Having been a good Mormon, a strong Mormon, going to the Temple and serving a Mission, I know what I speak of. You are probably some jerk in the Church Office Building that gets paid to spew propaganda. I actually eel bit sorry for you Andrew. You are so puffed up with self pride. You deny the historically recorded documents that state the Mormons belief. You deny your own faith and still claim to be a Mormon. Normally that is called Apostasy or heresy. And you do it with such... arogance. God, you are a real mental case. ..so caught up in their mind game and spin that you will argue over the snd on the sidewalk, and think you won because it chooses to not argue back.
Andrew, go back and read what your precious profits like Brigham Young actually said about the Blacks andwhy thy were really not allowed in the Church. Do not look to Salt Lake for the information, but look to the recordings of the people that were actually there. Learn about the Mormon Plan of Eternal Progression and what it really sys. How about the planet Kolob, and where it is and the significance of it in the Mormon faith. How about the real reason that you no longer practice plural marriage on this earth but kept in in the next life in your faith. The State of Deseret was chopped up by the Feds that did not trust the Mormons for good reason. Joseph Smith had been caught counterfeiting $ to support his Jim Jones style trip out west planned for the future. So they cut it up and made several states out of it. President Smith was going to do battle with the Federal Troops and they wanted to become a state. Before they became a state (UT) they had to renounce polygamy. The houses were stuffed with straw and they were ready to set them on fire for the glory of Gods command of Plural Marriage. This would have destroyed the Mormons and there would have been no future. So, quickly and conveniently, a revelation was received that God had changed his mind and there was no more plural marriage required to go to heaven in this life. But is was still a requirement in the next. (Isn't it amazing how approaching Federal Troops made God give a convenient revelation on what would stop the troops. Even the SL Temple was ready to be destroyed at the Mormons hands. This revelation saved the Mormon Churches Britches.
A Doctrine That is constantly Changing.... Let Us look at (on Polygamy): D&C 132...Still part of the Mormon Cannon Also, let us look at LDS Prophet- Spencer W.Kimball, April 1964 Page 95 "There is another power in this world, forceful and vicious. In the wilderness of Judaea, on the temples pennacles and on the high Mountain, a monumentous contest took place between two BROTHERS, Jehovah and Lucifer, Sons of Elohim" Also Spencer W. Kimball Faith precedes the Miracle..Pg. 87.
Another example of Plural Sealings
for you,... that you surely will deny...non the less it is THERE...Aposle Russel M.Nelson..His marriage in 2006..sealed to yet a second woman AFTER his first wife died in 2005. Read the BYU News letter April 7th 2006...Polygamy He is sealed to both wives for eterity.... Another example.."Doctrines of Salvation " Joseph F. Smith Volume 2 Page 67 " My WIVES will be mine in eternity. 10th President...These are all still in Writing!! Changed you say???? oh..sorry another revision. Oh and also Pg. 62 "Celestial Marriage Makes Gods" Finally Google "EVIDENCE FOR GOD" Contridictions in L.D.S. Doctrine.. Bible vs.BOM vs. D&C....Read away..I could not possibly BEGIN to write all of the absolute contradictions down. It goes on and on. One last thing..a friend of my sons who is currently on a mission and told her of this sight and how he feels JUST LIKE THIS "10 Lies of a Mormon Missionary" I am finished now. I do pray that you all do your real homework. One of our Bible Studies teachers ,(who is 84 now, and a wonderful and VERY knowledgeable on the Bible was excommunicated years ago for mearly asking questions about doctrine. She was told to go home and pray. She came back again and begged to talk about her concerns...EXCOMMUNICATED!! This woman prays everyday for her family who are still under this control. We can ALWAYS ask questions about anything, without the fear of Backlash. I do feel for you and too pray for you. All I ask is you check some of these things out. I know, YOU know better and can do NO wrong. I do completely feel for you. I am now finished and will go on with my life. Just do some homework. Those Mormon Scholars I gave the Names of before, are NOT idiots. They are very educated and have opened their eyes and souls. May God Bless you and Farewell
Even the SL Temple was ready to be destroyed at the Mormons hands. This revelation saved the Mormon Churches Bitches. Sorta like the US Justice Department under Carter telling Salt Lake to allow Blacks in full participation or loose their tax fee status with the IRS. Once again, with their backs to the wall (that they built) God told them what any kid knew they had to do. Another one of those back to the wall things that you whip up an idea and blame it on God so you can get out of trouble.
Andrew, there is so much more...like... if you believe that the population grew from the south to the north why does science show us that it grew from Asia across the Aleutians and from North America to South America! It is done thru DNA tracing. The population has not grown as the Book of Mormon teaches, but just the opposite! The BOM got it 101% wrong! There would be DNA similarities between the people of the middle East thru Nephi if the Book of Mormon were real. There is not even a single similarity in the DNA. Quite to the contrary, the DNA similarities are with Asians, and not the Middle East!
Why did JS get the Book of Abraham wrong? He said that it was from Abraham. In his time no one knew how to read the pictographs of Egyptian writing. Then, ... a real scientific revelation came up called the Rosetta Stone about a hundred or so years later. This stone had a single message in Greek, Egyptian and Latin. Using that we learned to translate Egyptian pictographs. Being able to understand and read the scrolls of that time we learned that JS was just bragging, planning on no one ever being able to read the Egyptian writings, and he got it 101% wrong as well. It was just a common burial scroll and did not need him to translate it.
Shall I go into where Brigham said Blacks should be killed? Why would a man that wanted that to be able to allow them into his Church/CULT? Andrew, the world really is round, that thing is a star we call the sun, and gravity does exist. And you are wrong. Silly, and self serving, self absorbed and ...wrong. You might be a good man, but you are arrogant and historically wrong in your assertions. Don't believe what people tell you from Salt Lake. Look to outside sources that are credible for your information. You remind me of a six year old that feels that he owns the neighborhood because no one will fight him...as cars ignore him and drive by, as people go about their activities caring little about his self image and views.
I am truly sorry for you Andrew.
...credum unum deum....
Don
VegasDon, while I applaud you for going into extremely more depth than you have before, you remain wrong in nearly everything you've stated. Do you really subscribe to the idea that you shouldn't go to the people who actually practice their faith to understand what they believe? If I want to learn what Catholics believe, should I turn to anti-catholic sources with an axe to grind? The safest bet to learn of the Mormon faith is to look at their actual teachings, their actual scriptures, read and listen to the words of their actual leaders. All of this can be found on LDS.org. I'm not saying to believe in the spin of a particular member, but to actually read our doctrine, right from our holy books. That will tell you what we actually believe.
Yes, I do know more about Mormonism than you do, as I have illustrated. I've read every book of scripture we have, the claims that you made are not in there. And if they are not found therein, they are not doctrine. If you had been a Mormon, you would know that. You say that you don't want to get deeply involved in my stupidity. Be honest, that's not the reason you refuse to answer me. Try telling the truth for a change and admit that the things you've said are not found in our scriptures. I challenge anyone out there to read the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants, see if there's anything that insinuates a belief in a polygamous god, or that he is engaged in sexual practices with his quadrillions of wives. I dare anyone to find this. VegasDon, you know that this isn't a doctrine, but you are more concerned with deceiving the people than you are in engaging in honest discussion. What a pity.
You say that I deny my own faith, yet I have done no such thing. I have denied only those things which are not true. We don't teach that Jesus and God are polygamist, we don't teach that you go to hell if you don't pay tithing. We don't teach that God lives on Kolob. I am perfectly in accord with our doctrines. You simply won't accept that you are wrong, despite the mountains of proof. You refuse to state where these beliefs are, citing various absurd reasons, fine. I'll ask a simple yes or no. Are these beliefs you say we have contained within the Standard Works of the church?
Why do I care what Brigham Young said about blacks? I'm familiar with it. He was a racist, a fallible man like everyone else, and his imposed ban on blacks and the priesthood were not rooted in the doctrines or scriptures of the church. They were most likely carried over from Young's Protestant upbringing, where he was taught that Blacks are destined to be forever in servitude to whites because of the actions of Ham. He was wrong, and thankfully, the church changed course. And even so, remember that the Bible was full of exclusionary practices, the priesthood being offered only to the descendants of Aaron, for example, or the gospel being withheld from the gentiles.
I'm familiar with the eternal progression. We've discussed this already. I showed that it is not only biblical, but that the early church fathers of your own faith believed this as well. And I'm familiar with Kolob, with its single reference in the Book of Abraham, being the star nearest to the throne of God. That's it. Kolob has very little relevance to current doctrine, and most church members tend to believe that Kolob is a metaphor for Christ anyways, who was also nearest to the throne of God.
I don't know why you keep harping on plural marriage, either. Yes, the rescinding of it took place at a crucial time, but that tends to be when God answers prayer...when you need it most. Many of the early apostles were routinely imprisoned, making the running of the church quite difficult, especially with the government constantly seizing our land and threatening violence. This most important revelation saved the church and ensured its survival. I'm still at a loss as to why you have a problem with the polygamy issue anyways. Countless prophets from the Bible were engaged in the practice, yet I don't see you criticizing them. And let's not pretend that the Mormon church is the only one with a sordid history here. Let's turn the gaze on your own faith of Catholicism, and your leaders. Pope Alexander the 6th, engaged in a massive orgy, including sexual relations with his sisters and daughter. Or Pope Damasus, who authorized the selling of women and children into the sex trade to increase funding for the church. The list goes on and on, including the sanctioning o bloodshed against anyone who dared question any facet of the Catholic Church. If we're going to make this a battle of horrible pasts, I'm afraid I'll have to give that title to your faith.
As for the Book of Abraham, as I've stated earlier, much of the documents were destroyed in a fire, so we don't know what they all said. Putting that aside, the papyrus didn't have to literally be from Abraham to have been translated. Most likely, the document served as a catalyst to prompt a revelation. What you fail to look at are the numerous non-LDS scholars who claim that what Joseph Smith wrote about, he got right, despite never having been exposed to the more secret parts of Judaism. Noted scholar Margaret Barker commended the Pearl of Great Price because of the accurate light it shed on Melchizedek, and Yale scholar Harold Bloom said, "that many of their themes are “strikingly akin to ancient suggestions” that essentially restate “the archaic or original Jewish religion, a Judaism that preceded even the Yahwist." and also, "“enormous validity” in the way these writings “recapture… crucial elements in the archaic Jewish religion.… that had ceased to be available either to normative Judaism or to Christianity, and that survived only in esoteric traditions unlikely to have touched [Joseph] Smith directly."
oh brother, you are like a bad rash that just keeps coming back. You are not going to convert anyone with your vitriol.
Your Mormon Temple under construction pollutes Rome. Your doctrines are not of Christ. Your doctrines are of Satan. You are arrogant and unwilling to converse, but seek to preach. Sorry, you loose. You are a member of a mind control cult, as your recidivist irrational actions prove. I feel sorry for you. Wow, you are one loose argumentative cannon.
Don,
Wow, VegasDon. When confronted again with the weakness of your position, you resort to ad hominem attacks rather than actually addressing the points of this discussion. You can whine all you want about the LDS church, but you can't win. The church is true, I know this for a fact. The Catholic church is an apostate copy, a mere vestige of the church started by Christ. Rather than deriving your doctrine from Jesus, the Bible and Holy Prophets, your doctrine underwent centuries of revision, where they were voted on in councils to satisfy political agendas. You do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible, but instead rely on the non-biblical nicene creed to define the savior. I do not recite vitriol, I speak only the truth, and I have proved it during our discourse, while showing you to be an utter fraud and a deceiver. This is evidenced by your complete unwillingness to back up your claims. Anyone reading this can see that you have been thoroughly defeated by someone whose gospel knowledge far surpasses your own, and in the process showing the high unlikelihood that you were ever counted as a Mormon. You should be thankful that there is a temple being built in Rome. It is the fulfillment of Joseph Smith's prophecy that temples will dot the earth. Now we have the standard of truth erected in Rome, the true gospel is gaining a foothold amongst the people, and the Saints in the area will receive blessings wholly beyond your ability to comprehend.
And by the way, you really ought to learn what words mean. The church is a mind-control cult? How? Name a single mind control practice the use? Do you even know what mind control means? And the word cult...seriously, you've already tried this and you failed miserably. If we are a cult, then so are you. In fact, I dare say your religion is more of one with the almost worshipful view you have of your pope and your fascination with the rotted body parts of famous saints.
That's nice Andrew, that's very nice. Remember humility amidst crowning yourself.
Don in Vegas'
Interesting, I read Jim Whitefield and Simon Southerton's Testimony. Very interesting indeed. Spoken from true experience and from their heart. Also did google some of the Anonymous's scripture from a friend's D&C. Yes it IS in there. Multiple wives, definitely talking plural here. Also, the whore of Babylon is DEFINITELY in reference to the Catholic Church. Joseph HATED that church. It is a no brainer. I have several Mormon friends who doubt the whole thing.
Classic VegasDon. defeated in debate, standing with no other option but to heap judgment upon his rival. Do you recall the Savior's words when he delivered the Sermon on the Mount? Why do you worry about the mote in your brother's eye, yet ignore the plank in your own? Under what authority to you purport to judge me when you are engaged in an even greater sin, that is of a liar, a deceiver, one who has the spirit of contention? Until you address your own sinful ways, you have no right according to Christ to judge me. Unless you don't believe lying is a sin...
To Anonymous: No one's denying that plural marriage is taught in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's a matter of historical fact that the church practiced polygamy in its earlier days. What I'm disputing is the idea that it is taught that God and Jesus are polygamous and that they procreate via celestial sex to create spirit children. This is most assuredly NOT in the D & C.
I would also like any kind of proof that Joseph Smith hated the Catholic church. I've seen nothing to substantiate this. In fact, he's seemed quite tolerant of them, claiming once that he would give up his life, not just to protect the rights of Mormons, but also of Catholics. It seems unlikely also that there would have been any animosity between Smith and the Catholics since the Catholic church was one of the few allies the Mormons had during the times of their immense persecution.
I would like some proof that you have logic and can "communicate". I feel sorry for you.
Don
what kind of proof? I've already given sources for my claims. That's how you hold an intellectual debate; you make a claim, give evidence, wait for the person to respond, then rebut their claim with additional facts. I've done this. You haven't. You make a claim, refuse to give citations, and expect people to believe on your word alone.
I on the other hand, corrected your misstatements by quoting from church scriptures, General conference talks and official publications from the church. Anyone can see that I've done my best to bring logic and reason into this discussion. It's not a crime to expect you to defend your position. I have, why won't you?
1) you are telling lies. You believe in plural marriage in the next life. You believe that Satan and Christ are brothers, both sons of God. This not a fantasy, but fact.
Andrew, you are an idiot. No one is going to run around getting information that you will twist. We KNOW what your church (Borg) believes. Problem is, I am wondering if you do. You are sad, and cannot think logically. You will make a perfect GA some day.
All of us know what you believe. You prancing back and forth does not change that fact.
Your cult is sad? How long have you been LDS? Not very long I think. How old are you?
Don
VegasDon, I never denied that Jesus and Satan are technically brothers, in that they share the same heavenly parentage. This in no way denigrates Christ's position, or elevates Satan. It simply implies that God is Father and Lord to both. I don't even know how you can dispute that.
As far as I know, the church does not officially hold the position that polygamy will be practiced in the next life, It is a theory that many hold to, but even if it is believed (and maybe it is out there somewhere) I'm unbothered by it. Polygamy was a practice in the Bible by many of God's chosen prophets. It's important to note, however, that just because some members may believe this to be a possibility doesn't mean it's official doctrine. Consider the words of Elder Charles W. Penrose, a member of the First Presidency in 1912, " Celestial marriage is essential to a fulness of glory in the world to come, as explained in the revelation concerning it; but it is not stated that plural marriage is thus essential." This is an official stance, I believe, that eternal marriage is required for exaltation, but there is nothing stating that one must be polygamist or that we will be polygamist in the next life. My main gripe with your claim, though, is your statement that we believe God to be a polygamist, when our official scriptures never even state that He has a wife. The only thing official regarding the matter is that we are offspring of "heavenly parents," stated in Family: Proclamation to the World. So to claim something else is simply a lie.
It's ironic that you say I will twist information around, and lie about it. That's what you've done this entire time. I don't expect other people to run around gathering information; I've done that myself to prove you a liar time and again. How am I twisting things around, like saying God had sex with his wives to create us, then I give information completely refuting that? I'm not twisting anything around. I've stated our position clearly, with sources to back up my claim. You have not. You and I each accuse the other of lying. The difference is I've shown you to be one by posting official information that counters what you say. Where is your proof that I am lying? Where is the metaphorical smoking gun of doctrine that shows I've lied about anything? You've offered nothing to bolster your case. No evidence, no sources, nothing. And when I invite you to support yourself, you say not because you're afraid I'll twist your words around, which is just stupid.
I've been a member for nearly sixteen years, and am 26 years old. I've accrued a great deal of gospel knowledge which has allowed me to best you in our arguments. You said you used to be a Mormon and that you served a mission. I doubt either are true, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Which mission did you serve?
I was LDS long before you were thought of. What you are sharing a spin, and not the actual Doctrine. The Doctrine is that "Satan and Christ are Brothers", not technically brothers, but lain and clear brothers. You call information twisted around when it is not, and the view you give ~IS THE twisted view. You have not been taught the greater portions of the LDS Doctrines.
See Andrew, the LDS have been changing their beliefs since the 70's trying to fit more and more into Mainline Christianity. Ask any older LDS person that has been around a while about the changes in teachings and practices.
I am proud of your growth in the teachings in the 16 years that you have been LDS. However, the things that you have been taught are not the same at all that was taught openly when I was younger, what I taught( or avoided) on a mission. Even the temple ceremonies have been altered! There is so much change going on within the LDS Church that younger people,yourself, have problems understanding what is and was taught.
You feel that you have accrued a lot of gospel knowledge that allow you to best others......It is also called novice and acolyte. My friend, you have not seen what was taught in the 50's, 60's and 70's. You have not seen where the Church Leaders denied that they talk with God as you would talk with me. THEY said this as Church leaders. Think that one through Andrew. That is a fulcrum point. If they are now stating that they do not talk with God, they are saying this mind you, then revelation goes out the window.
Just lighten up on the arrogant self importance stuff and be humble. No one cares. You catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar.
Don, Las Vegas
I don't know why you claim that I have not been taught the major portions of LDS doctrine, or that I am unfamiliar with what leaders in the past have taught. I've read the entire Journal of Discourses, have a copy of Mormon Doctrine, which lays forth the type of viewpoints commonly held by Mormon leaders in the fifties. And I've engaged in dozens of debates with detractors of the religion. I've seen all the claims and have researched them, and not juts from an LDS perspective. And I'm still accurate in my portrayal. What you still fail to see is that there is a difference between what one or two LDS leaders may have stated in during some talk a hundred years ago and what constitutes actual, official doctrine. What we officially believe is all contained within the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and pearl of Great Price. They constitute the Standard Works of the church, and are our official scriptures, the only things that are officially binding upon its members. And the things you're saying we believe simply are not in there.Is it possible that some church leader at some point stated that God is a polygamist? Maybe, though I'm unaware of any such statements, nor do I believe one exists. But if there is, that does not mean it is what the church as a whole believes, nor is it something that is taught. You said as if it were official, that the church believes God has quadrillions of wives. This isn't doctrine, and is speculation at best. Yet you maintain that it is something the church actively teaches and believes. If it is, it's news to me and I'd like to see where in our official scriptures this is laid out. And if you are unable to produce the source, then it can be assumed that you are mistaken.
You say also that the church has been changing its beliefs since the 1970s. I see no evidence for this either. Which doctrines have they changed? I am unaware of any actual 'doctrines.' There have been policy changes, sure, but that's not the same thing.
I don't know of any statements that church leaders have made denying that they talk with God. But I'd be interested in checking it out, provided you can show me where these statements are made. But even if some have said that, so what? Many church leaders have said that they have spoken with Jesus. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Lorenzo Snow have all made such claims. I don't think it robs a prophet of his calling to never have seen God face to face. A prophet's role is to make known to the people the will of God and to ensure that members of his church remain true to the faith. His primary role is to hold and exercise all of the keys of the Priesthood. I am unaware of any scriptural basis that requires one to actually speak face to face with God to be considered a prophet. The Holy Ghost is a magnificent revelator, and I've got no problem if the church is guided according to the influence of the Spirit, rather than a personal manifestation. Here you are making the assumption that one can only receive revelation by actually seeing, and this is not the case. So no, just because one does not literally see Christ does not mean that revelation goes out the window, just that God chose to reveal things through another method.
You have a blood lust for argument. Much closer to a lion attacking a zebra. You take pride in the ~process but not the ~outcome. You are wrapped in the blanket of contention and argument, and that is not of Christ. IMHO, you view yourself as a Gladiator. Better a farmer feeding the world than Gladius slaying one and loving it. Look into the silent motivators that make you love the fight. You are not gaining converts as the anger will drive them away. ~What~ is your motivation deep down inside? That is the key. Fighting is not the Lords way. It is a conflicted man way.
Pax vobiscum, Don
The many wives (minors as well) of Joseph Smith.
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm
How did you, in your deep studies, avoid these facts?
Don
I don't have a bloodlust for argument, in fact, I generally detest them. But when someone is intentionally besmirching my religion with outright lies and half-truths,and then have the offending party (you) sit there and maintain through thick and thin that you are right when you've been proven time and again that you are not, it's easy to become aggressive. My intent is not to convert anyone through here--I don't know if it's even possible to get converts through a message forum--my intent is to defend the virtues of the religion, and to make sure anyone who reads this will realize that what you've said is simply not true. And I think anyone who does read this will obviously come to this conclusion because you cannot offer anything to support what you say. Nothing.
And why you brought up Joseph Smith's multiple wives, I have no idea. Do you really think I haven't heard this before? I don't even deny it; it's a matter of historical fact that he was a polygamist. Nor does the church hide it. Information on the polygamous relationships of early leaders are discussed in our classes and teaching manuals.
It is grossly unfair also to condemn Smith because of his relationship with "minors." What you are doing here is projecting the sensibilities of a modern day society on the past. It was not terribly uncommon in the 19th century. Heck, Edgar Allan Poe married his fifteen year old cousin. Nor is there any evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith engaged in sexual relations with any wife other than Emma. LDS and non-LDS scholars have attempted to find offspring of Smith and so far, not a single one can be found other than those that trace back to Emma Smith.
Even so, is what Joseph Smith did any worse than the Catholic Church Priests molesting young children and their systematic attempts to cover it up? At least with Smith, the marriages were consensual and well known.
Andrew,
People do not have besmirch your religion. Salt Lake does it on their own with inconsistent stories that don't add up. No one could do it better than they do.
Go, the word pediofelia and child rape are new to this century and it was smiled upon and encouraged in the time of Joseph Smith. Andrew, this one of these damned ignorant positions that you paint yourself into. You did this, no one did it to you. You are trying to tell me that JS was polygamous with minors and it was ok. "ya ain't right in da head boy". Credability Andrew, credability.
Don
ps / The very few Priests that bothered kids need to be taken out behind the barn and beat with a razor strap. Less tha 1%, and unforgivable IMHO. ...clear... As do the Mormon Bishops that sell investments to members and rob them of their income causing them to live off the fed. As do the Missionaries that have sex with their contacts.
Don
My point wasn't to condone what Joseph Smith did necessarily, but to show that it wasn't terribly uncommon. I didn't paint myself into a corner on that. This is a matter of historical fact. Even now, the age of consent is sixteen is some states; it's not inconceivable that a great deal of what would be considered minors today would have married at a young age. And again, there is no evidence that these marriages were even sexual in nature, in fact, many scholars (including non-LDS) doubt they were. Many of Smith's marriages were for eternity only, and not for time. You are attempting to besmirch the church with blatant lies and falsehoods in the hopes that no one would notice. I still maintain that you are irritated that I have shown you to be incorrect. And I suspect that you know you are wrong and have no proof because I find that you have dropped certain talking points that you were using before.
Yes those priests need to be dealt with. Unfortunately, the Catholic church felt it a better course of action to cover it up, indicating that this problem goes beyond merely a few wayward priest. The problem is institutionalized and the Catholic church made the decision to act according to what would be best for the image of their religion, rather than following the right course. So this isn't even comparable to the LDS examples you gave as the church doesn't condone, endorse or attempt to hide these things. And in the case of missionaries having sex with contacts, I'm sure it happens, but the worst thing they are in violation with here is church policy and a violation of their religious beliefs. Relations between two consenting adults is not the same things as molesting children.
My point with the catholic priest scandal isn't to show how horrible the Catholic church is; in fact, I tend to have a lot of respect for it as a religion. It's to show that one cannot judge the validity of a religion based on sins committed by leaders. You act as though LDS apostles must be perfect or else they aren't really called of God. Even if Joseph Smith was not instructed to engage in polygamy, would that automatically mean he wasn't a prophet? No. The Bible is full of mighty prophets engaging in horrible sins. The great King David committed adultery with one of his soldier's wives and got her pregnant. So to cover it up, he sent her husband off to fight a vicious battle in the hopes that he would be killed so he wouldn't have to deal with it. This was kind of a jerk thing to do, but it doesn't rob David of his prophetic role.
Here are some truths that people do not hear, and from former Mormons. Pax Vobiscum :)
Don Vegas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=OCl1387vk7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6ygt35jmo&list=PL0AA01C328F92EE83
Yeah, because you can trust ex-Mormons. If they want to leave the true gospel of Jesus Christ, it's their prerogative, and they will be held accountable for it. It still doesn't nullify the unmitigated fact that the LDS religion is Christ's church.
Mormons join Bigots in ever increasing numbers....
http://americablog.com/2013/02/mormons-join-religious-right-bigots-in-filing-brief-in-support-of-prop-8.html
Funny thing is that this is not being said or shared out of an anti Mormon bias. They are actually doing it! This stuff cannot be made up, it has to actually happen!! hahahaha Yes, love your neighbor, and kill them if they look or act different. Jesus reveals it! hahahahaha
You're kidding, right? You are aware that the Catholic church shares the LDS position on gay marriage, don't you? You are also aware that the Catholic church has aligned itself with the Mormons in filing legal briefs defending prop 8? I don't see you posting this stuff about Catholics.
This piece was clearly written with an Anti-Mormon perspective. The writer himself is homosexual, and refers to the church as "bigots" and "hatemongers." The LDS church does not 'hate,' gays, no more than Catholics do. They recognize that a homosexual lifestyle is in opposition to God's will and oppose it as such.You also realize that Prop 8 only sought to legally define what constitutes marriage, aren't you? Contrary to what the article says, Prop 8 did not 'take away,' any right other than to be officially called "married," by the state. There are already laws in California that afford same-sex couples the same civil rights associated with marriage, and the church did not oppose such legislation. Here is an official response from the church showing this.
"The focus of the Church’s involvement is specifically same-sex marriage and its consequences. The Church does not object to rights (already established in California) regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the family or the constitutional rights of churches and their adherents to administer and practice their religion free from government interference."
So as you can see, the church did not oppose equal rights under the law, only insofar as they did not damage the moral integrity of marriage or conflict with a church's rights regarding marriage.
The Catholic Church is not in the habit of joining anything the Mormons do, opinions, legal briefs, etc...
The truth is not Anti-Mormon in its perspective, but the truth. You call it Anti because of the distance and the noticing of that distance by myself and others.
The Mormon Church took its own members to the cleaners under the Prop 8 thing the same way that Germany took its own citizens to the camps. You guys are against anything and everything that does not agree with your views. You spew vitriol and angst so often. And they tried to hide behind the members they organised so as to incorrectly say "it is an act of the memers and the Church itself is not involved". The readers can google for the information and draw their own conclusions, ...fair?
You will continue to exist no matter what they do, no matter what the courts do.... Just stop trying to look so holy in the mess you are in. Just like the Nazi guys, you do it, then point to the others and blame them and say "who, me"?? Yes, you persecute others, you crush independent thought, you make others conform, and you kill the spirit of man. You are a cult. If the rest of the nation allows Gay / Lesbian marriage you will slowly gravitate toward it and then amazingly, you will recieve revelation from God to change your basic premise as you did with Blacks and the Priesthood. Brigham younf said that Blacks could be no more than maids and servants in heaven. Then as time went on, and the Justice Department was going to sue the LDS Borg over violating Blacks civil right, Freedom of religion) and take away your tax free status...... Then God came out with the Priesthood revelation giving the Priesthood to the Blacks. You'll do the same with Gays and Lesbians in the future. You guys get sued and loose all the time over crap like this.
Don, Las Vegas
The foolishness you exhibit, VegasDon...it's mindblowing really. Look into the Prop 8 debate, buddy. The Catholic church most definitely was in league with the Mormons. In fact, it was them who came to Us, because of our resources.
Are you honestly comparing the way the LDS handled members during Prop 8 to Nazi Germany? Do you realize how much of a simpleton this makes you look like? How did they "take members to the cleaners," exactly? I disagreed with my church's involvement, leaders knew about it and you know what? Nothing happened. There wasn't a single case of members being reprimanded because of their beliefs over the matter.
The church does oppose anything that we don't agree with, Duh. EVERYONE opposes things that they don't agree with, otherwise they wouldn't hold those views. What you said would apply to literally everyone alive. I welcome anyone to do research to find the truth. The church did not organize a thing, did not put any church money towards the cause. They didn't bus members into California to protest. These things are patently false and are against the law. If the church really did this, their tax exempt status would be revoked.
I hope you realize that the charges you put against the LDS church would more aptly apply to the Catholics, or are you too stupid to see that too? We crush independent thought? No more than any other religion. Remind me whose religion it was that threatened scientists with death if they didn't recant...here's a hint: The answer is the Catholics.
Our church will never allow same-sex marriage. Unlike the ban on blacks in the priesthood, which was merely policy and not found in any official doctrine, the family is the most central part of Mormon doctrine. The church could not exist from a theological standpoint of homosexuality is condoned. We'd have to completely revamp our doctrines. It's not going to happen.
Your comments have got me wondering; are you even a Catholic? I don't think you are. We all know you are a bald-faced liar; you're probably lying about this too. If not, you are unwittingly condemning your own church, who also opposes same-sex marriage. Or did you not know that? In fact, Catholics are far more restrictive. Whose priests aren't allowed to marry? Which church bans the use of contraceptives? Catholics.
I think you've confirmed once and for all that you are either an idiot or a chronic liar who exists solely to deceive. Facts don't matter to you, not as long as you can make up "information," as you go, without giving a single shred of evidence.
We have an informed difference of opinion. You have more emotion than informed opinion.
I find your views to be so very arrogant, misinformed and, well, self serving. The Mormons and the catholic "Church" did not work together so much as some of the most conservative Catholic individuals in one state, in one nation did. The entire catholic Church went on bended knee to the pagan Mormons?! You arrogant self serving un-itellectual paramecium! In the thousands of colleges we have, in the over one BILLION members we have, ...we have the resources to do as we wish. However, if you feel that your guidance and direction was needed, well, then, I guess it is important to you. But do not insult yourself by showing such a perception void of even comon sense.
It is a matter of course that you would dissagree with the fitting and correct comparison of the Mormons cannibalizing their own members with the Nazi dudes. And to the catholics that did what you did, the same. However, the shoe fits, the actions and motivations are the same. wear it, pompous magnus.
You have a history of revamping your doctrines. Polygamy, Adam_God,...I could go on ad naseum / pukum :). as you guys change wth the wind. Don't give any argument on it as your actions are obvious!
You said "WE" know you are a bald face liar. You got the bald part right on the money. However, telling you the truth about your devil inspired cult that does not now and never has believed in the real Christ is not being a liar. Your problem is not my faith, but your faiths inability to mesh in with the Christian world you are so separate from. You want to be perceived as hristians so bad that you are actually changing your beliefs to do it!!n Amazing! AMAZING to watch a pussy cat try to roar like a tiger so as to possibly be confused as one. ...funny, too.
Sorry Andrew. I feel sorry for you, humbly... which is something you seem to be unfamiliar with. The information shared on your faith is from my personal experience, and that of millions of others that leave your BORG faster than you can baptize them. Since you cannot factually refute it with information you try to supplant it with emotion and vitriol. You may consider yourself to be an authority, a General Authority even. I see a scared little boy, trying to play football with the big boys.
I am setting up an automatic responder at removalinfo@lasvegasdon.com for those that would like some specific information on having their names removed. It is valid world wide and I am happy to send it world wide, free and no obligation. Record removal can now be done by fax and is immediate. The email address is a computer system and no one attends it. It will send you instantly back correct and accurate information that can assist you in dealing with the Mormons. They have lost court cases and this is consistent with those cases. Send an email to removalinfo@lasvegasdon.com. You should have the information in 30 seconds from the system. Nothing to sell. Just some free and informative information.
Later gater,
Don in Vegas
Andrew, in your August 06, 2013 @ 12:14 pm post you called a person that posted n argument about the Mormons and Prop 8, ...well, I'll just "cut and paste what you said...
This piece was clearly written with an Anti-Mormon perspective. The writer himself is homosexual, and refers to the church as "bigots" and "hatemongers." The LDS church does not 'hate,' gays, no more than Catholics do. They recognize that a homosexual lifestyle is in opposition to God's will and oppose it as such"....
\
Andrew, people are allowed a difference of opinion, even a difference in appreciation of the facts. However, it is not wise, legally, for you to refer to someones sexual preference in such a derogatory or accusatory fashion. Some of the hardest workers and most moral people I worked with were the very people that Christ wold have gone out to be with... the hookers, the drug users, the ones that you would avoid in your Pharisee act. God loves Gays, Lesbians and does not take the position of the LDS Church, or even the position of a few of the Catholics. The big thing that must be overcome is not tothers actions or intentions, but our view of them. We do not judge others Andrew. That is for someone far better than I will ever be. ...the Holy "Man Upstairs".
And Hugh, I look you right i the eye and unswerving state, the Mormon Church took the same position with the Gays as Germany did with the Jews. I state this without fear or undulation. Everyone knows it, well, except for the over studied yet under thinking you. We did it as independent members and those that did seek to hurt their brother will pay in their heart and soul. The Mormons did so as an institution and under the direction of the LDS Church. Give it a rest and take responsibility for more than loies. Anyone that hurts another person is wrong Andrew. You do not get out on this one.
removalinfo@lasvegasdon.com
Don
What in the world are you prattling on about now, Vegas Don? I said nothing that could be construed as bigoted or hate-filled or judgmental. In fact, I even stated that those who do oppose same-sex marriage do not do it out of hate, but out of obedience to God as he clearly forbids it.
And what do you mean that it is not wise "legally?" Setting aside the fact that I did not write anything hostile, what kind of 'legal,' trouble can you get into? Even if I had a long hate-filled rant, which I didn't, you do know that people in this country have a right to be bigoted, don't you?
But back to what I wrote, please explain to me what was objectionable. I only stated facts. The writer is a homosexual, he said so. He also said the church was bigoted and hate-filled. These are not disparaging remarks, but verifiable facts. I said that he has an anti-Mormon bias, but that's evident too. I did say that the church opposes homosexuality and believes that God considers it a sin, but he does. Both of our religions hold this as doctrine. Nor did I ever say that a homosexual is not capable of being a good person. Indeed, many of them are, and surely Christ would have interacted with them. But he interacted with lots of sinners; it doesn't mean he approves of the sins.
Honestly, this last post of yours in a head scratcher, almost nonsensical and accusatory. What is the point you're trying to make here?
You said also that Mormons took the same stance as Nazi Germany. Are you saying then that Mormons rounded up gays and locked them in concentration camps? If not, then what in the world are you talking about? If you mean only that Nazis didn't approve of homosexuality, well...neither does your church. And I'm sure there is something you disagree with that they do too.
Uh boy....
Go back, read yor posts about three back. Use those to set the stage for your last post.
How can you be so unaware of your own posts, what you say in them.
I want to ask you a favor. One, I think you are a frigin idiot. Your opinions are uninformed and you forget what you post and the tone they portend with others. Stop posting here please. You can continue to post and be well within your rights. However, you are problematic, and argumentative. You are making your Church look bad. Just stop with your stuff.
Finally, your faith does not worship the same Christ as we Christians do. You believe in a plurality of Gods...you just worship one, you believe the Garden of Eden was in Independence, MO., and a lot of other strange things that are not Christian. Now, go on your happy way and spread your gospel of...whatever it is.
Don
La vostra istruzione è evidente. Tu sei stupido come una mucca.
Don, Las Vegas
Almost 4 years you have been at this, Vegas Don, trying to endure to the end? I just found this blog and can't believe the hate. I am Mormon and have prayed this day for the Catholic Church to select a leader approved by the Lord.
I also served in Italy and can understand your last post, the name calling continues.
You have no idea what logic is do you? If you think I was out of line, then the burden of proof lies with YOU to show that. I am fully aware of my posts. I have looked through them again and there is NOTHING that is offensive, unless simply stating that homosexuality is considered a sin.
Funny you find me to be an idiot when it has been you all along making bizarre and unsubstantiated claims. I have completely demolished every single argument you put forth. And knowing that you have been thoroughly beat, you want me to 'go away,' so you don't look any more foolish than you already do. You say my opinions are uninformed. How. I can back up every single statement I made, and have, for the most part. Where is your proof? What evidence have you put forth? You act like you are without faults. I have demonstrated that you are a liar and that you are posting under false pretenses. You claim you were once Mormon, when any self respecting member of the church knows better than the things you put.
As a final note, it is YOU who worship a fake Christ. Tell me again how the Trinity came to be. You know, the definition of God that was concocted in a fourth century council that completely contradicts the Bible and first and second century Christians.
Face it, you lost this round and anyone who reads this can see that. If you want to show me how I'm wrong, go right ahead. I'm perfectly willing and able to show you where you are in error, as I have done so many times already.
My argumentative friend perambulating in the mist,
There is no "round". I just disagree with you. I do not believe in your plurality of Gods, I disagree with plural marriage in the next life, I dressage that Satan?Christ are spiritual brothers I disagree that the Book of Mormon is from God, I disagree that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, as do billions of others on this earth. This has to do with your ego, and not a lot more. I can have an informed view that garnered information from my experiences as a Mormon, and a good Mormon. I left the Borg you are in for the very vitriolic reasons you exhibit here in this forum. Your actions are juvenile. When you cannot prove your point by use of information you attempt to berate the other person. That act is very un-Christ like, would you not agree!? On my Mission (California Oakland) we had a few Missionaries that had as a goal to "see an angel", or they memorized the brief introductions to the BOM above the paragraphs. When nothing happened, when they never saw an angel, when they did not become a GA by the time they were angry. "How could God" not recognize their strength and humility! Who did this God-Guy think he was? They were arrogant and pushy, and never humble. They left the Borg LDS Church.
I have no desire to show you where you are wrong in your life. You must do that. When we set ourselves up on a high place to instruct and show others... not a good sign.
You can stay, go awayt, et some soup, drink a soda...your call, do as you wish. Your tantrums and silliness are distasteful tome. Do as you wish, no one cares.
Just know that the Temple being built in Rome will be right up there with other Disneyland places that really do not create a fairy princess, and dumbo the elephant really does not fly no matter how much you feel he does.
I know this to be true, and I say it in the name of plain old common sense, Amen.
dove è l'umiltà, il pensiero, il Cristo nel vostro argomento
Don
My problem isn't with you disagreeing. My problem is with you bald faced lying. Don't you think lying and deceit are unChristian, because you've done a lot of it.
I've proven my point with FACTS. I have cited time and again what the church actually believes. YOU are the one who can't substantiate anything you say. When I ask for evidence, you say Nope, not my job. Well, if you make a claim, then yes, support it. You have stated in our discussions that we believe God lives on Kolob, that God and Jesus are polygamous, that you go to hell if you don't pay tithing, and a host of other things. None of which are true, and I can show that they're not true. I know you weren't a Mormon and you are not fooling anyone. Every single Mormon that has read this blog can detect your deceit, and we have corrected you time and time again. You are apparently too dense to understand what we're telling you. Only in your mind do you come out of this looking like you are the victor. You are like a sad pathetic little kid desperately seeking attention from the grown ups.
I don't believe your story about missionaries trying to see an angel (which the church teaches against, we're not supposed to seek signs) or becoming instant general authorities. First off, you never served a mission, and secondly, I don't know a single Mormon that would act and say such idiotic things.
Why don't you admit that you have been lying to these people all this time about what Mormons actually teach. And if you still maintain you are telling the truth, I'll offer this challenge. Prove it. Show that we believe what you say. Go ahead, I dare you to. And when you fail to produce this evidence (since it doesn't exist) we can take that as incontrovertible evidence that you are lying. Sound like a deal?
I'm glad you have found solace in an apostate faith that makes a mockery of God and His true nature. But when you die and stand before the judgment seat of God...oh boy, Let's just say He doesn't take too kindly to attacking His Kingdom and denying His prophets.
My friend, all the world and anyone that can use google knows that you believe in the God / Jesus/ Multiple and countless wives/ Satan and Jesus are brothers...etc... If you do not give your 10% plus offerings plus more on Fast Sunday you can (you WILL if you do not pay 10% tithing and prove it in an interview called Tithing settlement) be denies a Temple recommend. Without the temple rec you cannot go to the temple, right. Now, if I miss anything here tell me... If you cannot go to the temple you cannot be sealed to your spouse, and you cannot go to any level in the multi-leveled Celestial Kingdom, where God and Jesus live. Ya wanna tlk about the three levels? So, the start is not giving Salt Lake your money, the 10% thing, and the end is non access to the temple / heaven. No money to Salt Lake, no heaven for you. Its cause and effect, and not emotion... stimulus response.
Calm down Andrew. You are loosing it and creating a public record while doing it. Shall we discuss.... Mountain Meadows Massacre where Brigham sent gunmen members out to kill people traveling west / leaving the State of Deseret, leaving the Mormon influence?? How dare they leave the Jim Jones plantation. So, he had them shot and blamed the Indians who were innocent. We have historical evidence! Shall we discuss Adam-God, Joseph Smith hooking up with minors, ...Oh, what a lovly conversation we can have Andrew. The 14 year olds, or maybe him sending guys on missions, ...and he "consoled" their wives physically. Maybe we can discuss the now known wive(S) PLURAL wives! How about the four versions of the First Vision where God and Christ and others visited Joseph Smith. Check out www.lifeaftermormonism.net for some credible links . I find it interesting that since you cannot win a logical argument you attempt character assassination in its stead. Interesting.
Where shall we go bafoon, I mean Baboon. Email removalinfo@lasvegasdon.com to gain valuable info on your membership records removal.
Gratzi Paizano, :)Don
Forgot to mention, ...people do not have to rust me and what I share. As a matter of fact, I don't want them to trust me. It would be better if they would just google for the information and develop their own informed views, separate and distinct from mine. Be independent of me, use the search engines... fair enough you pampas baboon?
Don
Yes, let's discuss these issues, like the fact that a polygamous God is nowhere to be found in our doctrine. Let's start with that. You do know that just because you google something and someone somewhere said it, that it doesn't make it fact, right? Our official core doctrine is found only in the Standard Works. If it is not found in our four books of scripture, it is not official, and I can state unequivocally that these things you say are not in there.
And with tithing, yes, it's required to get a temple recommend, but that's not what you stated before. You said a person can not go to heaven without paying tithing. That's not true. You're not even barred from the Celestial Kingdom. The only ordinances needed for entry into the Celestial Kingdom are Baptism and Confirmation. The temple ordinances are needed for Exaltation. And yes, about the three levels of heaven, this completely destroys your case. You don't even have to be a Mormon to go to the lower two levels of heaven, therefore, reason dictates that not paying tithing to Mormons will NOT keep you out of heaven. The only thing that bars you from heaven is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. So yes, let's discuss how wrong you are on these points.
And Mountain Meadows, sure, let's talk about that too, and the fact that all historical evidence shows that Brigham Young had no part in it. If you maintain he did, then you must explain away the letter he sent trying to stop it. The Mountain Meadow massacre was orchestrated by local bishops acting of their own accord. Claiming that there is proof that Brigham Young ordered it is fallacious and false history. And for the record, you've got your facts wrong about the massacre anyways. The members of the Baker Fancher wagon train were not people who were trying to flee Mormon influence. They were emigrants traveling from Missouri/Arkansas, heading to California. And the reason they were killed was one of revenge, as it was believed that many members of the wagon train were complicit in the murder of beloved LDS apostle Parley Pratt. As you're so apt to say, these facts are out there. Heck, the reason many of these records still exist is because Mormons kept them. And no, the Indians were not innocent. Both Mormons and Indians participated in the massacre.
I'd also be open to a discussion of Adam-God, a comment, most likely transcribed improperly that doesn't exist anywhere outside of the Journal of Discourses, a non-canonical, unofficial publication that was first printed in Great Britain, none the less. It's not doctrine, has never been doctrine and has been disavowed dozens of times since.
And what about Joseph Smith's 'minor' wives? Aside from the fact that there is no evidence that he engaged sexually with any of them, so what? You are falling into the logical fallacy of presentism, whereas you are judging someone's character according to societal norms that did not exist at the time. During Joseph Smith's life, the age of consent under English Common Law was ten. It wouldn't be raised until the late 19th century. And even now, a sixteen year old may be married with parental consent. So yes, Joseph had one or two wives that were around fifteen, but that was hardly uncommon at the time, and wasn't even illegal or considered immoral. You know that most biblical scholars, including Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary was betrothed to Joseph when she was twelve, and gave birth to Christ well before fourteen, don't you? Was that Joseph a pedophile or statutory rapist? What about God for choosing such a young woman? And while we're on the topic of sexual indiscretions, let's talk about the systematic molestation of children and the subsequent cover ups of the Catholic church. Care to have that discussion? My point, stop throwing stones at a church when your own has far more skeletons in its own closet.
Do you really believe life after Mormonism is a credible link? You have just shown your complete lack of critical thinking. It's notorious for being wrong, and for being filled with incorrect, anti-Mormon propaganda, probably the same silly arguments you've been making.
I find it just hilarious that you say I've resorted to character assassination because I can't win a logical argument. How silly of you. I've already won it. I've pointed out where you've been wrong and given sources to support my claims. THAT is how you debate. Just because you throw out ridiculous and wild claims doesn't make them any more cogent, you realize this, right? I'm sure you want all the things you said about us to be true, and from what I can tell, you're mad because they simply aren't true. The typical Anti Mormon talking points you've been spoon fed are completely unsubstantiated and have no bearing in fact.
Remember the challenge of my last post? That if you cannot prove what you say, then you are certainly making it up? I think we have our answer, now don't we?
Andrew, no, lets not discuss these issues. Something is wrong with you, in the head. You are not normal. I have no desire to discus anything with you further.
Seriously, you are just not normal in the head. The basic Mormon teachings are the ones you deny exist.
You want to "win"...ok, good for you. I would rather be accurate and effective. You instead want to "win". OK, you can say that you win, but you must also take with you the fact that you lie to others regarding the teachings of the Mormons, and need help from a psychologist, possibly even a psychiatrist. Do not communicate with me further. You are a whack job and they left the knife in your head.
Now, unlike the authorities in Salt Lake that are looking for a guy that fits your profile to shut him down, I work on the internet. I am aware of and use the programs that assist law enforcement in running down criminals. I, and others as well, are able to locate you right down to your address, and turn that information over to your local law enforcement and the guys in salt Lake in the Church Office Building. You are probably that guy that has presented himself as a Bishop, and is not just as you have represented yourself as a man that served a Mission in Italy. Yet you cannot respond to the questions I gave you in Italian.
Any further problems with your vitriol and I will quietly without further response, gain your hidden information and report you to the General Authorities, and from your address, your local Ward and Stake leaders, as well as the Police in your municipality. I hope alarm bells are going off in your head here Andrew. You are NOT anonymous in the least. Frankly, I have already run your information down to your five digit zip code.
Go take your meds and you will feel better. Stop arguing and embarrassing yourself and the LDS Church.
Are you kidding me? Boy, I don't even have words to describe your actions. First you offer to have a discussion on these issues. I consent and then present evidence showing you're wrong. Then, knowing that I beat you, you recant and say no, you're not going to discuss them further. The real reason is that you know you're lying and you can't support your information. I have not lied about anything regarding our doctrine. I dare you to find these things we supposedly believe. I've done so already and you refuse because you are a liar and this evidence does not exist. You then continue your lying ways by giving faulty historical information that I called you out on.
You completely lost me about some criminal Salt Lake Authorities are looking for. I don't even live in Utah, and have only been there once, when I was ten, and that was to attend a wedding in Las Vegas. Our train made a quick stop in Salt Lake City. I wasn't even a Mormon then.
Your nonsensical rant about pretending to serve a mission in Italy makes no sense. I never said I served a mission in Italy. I never served a mission anywhere.
You can spare me with the fear tactics about tracking me down on the internet. I'm not an idiot. You cannot track me down. If you really did have my five digit zip code (impossible since I don't have a computer at home and am posting from a college campus that is not in my zip code, you'd know I live in Michigan, and not Salt Lake City. But your words intrigue me. What will you turn over to the 'authorities?" Being a jerk on an anonymous comment board is not against the law. And if you really did have my five digit zip code, what is it?
Jeez, you say I'm in need of psychiatric help, when you're the one that goes on a bizarre rant about me being a wanted criminal in Salt Lake City? Seriously, where did that even come from?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk is a very revealing (hhahahaha) short vid that shares actuao Mormon beliefs that they keep secret from you! They hide most of their beliefs and never tell you until later.
removalinfo@lasvegasdon.com
Don
Nice try, VegasDon, but that cartoon is absolutely ridiculous and NOT authoritative. It is pulled right from the Anti-Mormon film "The God Makers," produced and written by two notorious anti-mormons who make a living out of attacking the church. The non-denominational National Council of Christians and Jews released this statement regarding the film,
"The film does not - in our opinion - fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon history, or Mormon belief. It makes extensive use of "half-truth," faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith."
Anyone who thinks this is what Mormons actually believe is just stupid.
Reading this string of comments is a great example of a former member of the Church ie: Don, who must have had a real testimony of the Restored Gospel... he is living proof of those "that can leave the Church - but can't leave it alone"
I believe that is among the such a lot significant information for me.
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I am a Catholic, and I apologize for the bitter comments of VegasDon. It's embarrassing to see my fellow Catholics speak so barbarically about other faiths.
Sorry for your sour puss attitude.
I'm sorry that you did not follow the teachings of Christ and your lessons. I gave great thanks the Catholic faith while on my mission for the foundation of faith it built for those ready for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yes. Just as it was prophesied in scripture.
Currency meltdown? Then i can't think of a better thing to invest in.
:( Nice insults. I'm sure your Jesus is proud of your comments.
I think the eternal teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ trump the miniscule age of Rome. 1/3 of God's sons and daughters fell from his presence in heaven. I'm sure one more ex missionary/ward clerk isn't a surprise. Luckily for you there is repentance and reconciliation.
You're funny. All of this written by an "anonymous" poster. Hello pot? This is kettle, you're black.
That was a long post of lies and half truths. I could hear the horror music while reading it.
Not that I've ever worshipped anyone but God as you claim the opposite. But don't Catholics pray to "saints"? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. Things that make you go Hummm?
I'm not trying to compare religious weirdness here but Martin Luther was inspired to call out the Catholic church for its changes of doctrine and un Christian practices.
You may want to clean your spiritual house before you start asking others to clean theirs.
The Catholic church isn't mentioned in the Bible. For good or for evil. Your scriptural interpretation is off. And yes. If Mormonism is true then all other denominations are teaching a false doctrine. There should be zero apology in that statement. I understand it goes both ways and in no way does your belief in Catholic doctrine slap my face. It's your right to believe and i think you following it brings more good into the world than not. We all progress little by little until we've been touch by the truth of the restored gospel.
Rome is very blessed and must be so happy to have this temple coming soon!
Amen
As someone who was baptized Catholic but never really raise that way I find the Mormons to be the most tempting of faiths because they seem like such good Christians.
I mean the proof is in the pudding and no other faith even comes close to appearing as blessed as the Mormons are!
Friendly people as far as the eye can see! They work together for the common good. Live extremely moral lives. They adore Jesus Christ!
And for their labors their bounties overflow like no other peoples. They dwell in peace, prosperity, and love in a world on fire with hate!
If Catholic dogma is the one true dogma then why are their followers not as equally motivated or equally blessed?
The Mormons test my faith like no other. Because though I am not technically one of their lambs I so want to lay down along side them and actually feel the rays of a loving God.
Msgr. Enrico Feroci, the diocesan director of Caritas in Rome, the department that takes care of the church’s aid to the needy.
“Everyone has a right to make their own faith choices and to adopt the necessary means to profess it, such as building places of worship,” he noted.
“The Mormons shouldn’t be seen as a danger,” The real dangers for the Catholic Church are found among Catholics themselves, who too easily forget their roots, fail to recognize the richness of the Gospel message, and get lost in their vanity, selfishness, and indifference toward others, especially the weakest.”
VegasDon, Repent of your sins and be baptized. You suffer from the worst sin of all "Pride" and you have an abundance of it. I seriously doubt that you were ever a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or ever served a mission for the church, anywhere in the world.
According to your feelings as described in your numerous comments on this site you would not make a good member of the Catholic Church either or any other "Christian" Religion for that matter, because the words that come from your mouth are not the feelings and teachings of the Savior of the world (the Lord has forbidden us to judge others) - that is his prerogative). The Asian religions do not express such judgmental criticism toward other religions and people either.
Growing up I was closely associated with the Catholic Church and still am close to my Catholic friends and they with me. I found The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, studied it and joined, but have never had any reason to feel negative about the Catholic Church or my Catholic Friends. They have continued to show their kindness toward me as well.
When I read your comments it reminded me of two scriptures that say "Who is this that darkeneth council by words without knowledge" Job 38:2. And a second "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. Proverbs 14:7
I once heard a very wise old man say "Some people seldom speak and they keep you in doubt as to their intelligence, while some others are constantly opening their mouth and constantly removing all doubt.
"The mills of God grind slow, but they grind mighty fine." Slow, but eventually you will come around. You cannot escape it. You are a part of Heavenly Father's eternal plan.
"Know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Job 8:32 Either in this life or the life to come, you will eventually know and acknowledge the truth.
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