If this woman is truly celibate, then she has my best wishes and admiration. But I think many of the people who claim to be celibate are like the folks who quit smoking a dozen times a day, right after every cigarette. And for a man below the age that testosterone production wanes, celibacy is simply a physical impossibility unless he has his testicles removed. The Pope knows this, and everybody else knows it. Celibacy is some sort of charade, and it has to be related to the child molestation that has been perpetrated by Roman Catholic Priests for so many years.
I don;t see how celibacy can be linked to child molestation There are3 many non Christians relgious that are celibate and one gets no sense this is related to child molestation.
All that I know is what has happened. For centuries Roman Catholic Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes, etc. have claimed to have practiced celibacy even though every man on the planet knows that this is physically impossible until after he reaches the age when there is a diminished production of testosterone and sperm. I know there are Monks of other than Catholic religion, and they must be lying about it also. For as long as I can remember, it has been suspected that Roman Catholic Priests were molesting children. Way back in the 1960's Johnny Carson told jokes about Priests and Altar Boys. Nobody could do anything about it until the victims came forward. In the past few decades, they have been coming forward in droves. There has to be some cause and effect relationship between the fact that so many Priests have been implicated in child molestation. It should certainly be studied. Of course it is true that there are untold numbers of child molestors who are not Catholic Priests, and there are other people besides Catholics who make claims of being celibate. It does not change the fact that there is a risk factor in letting children come into contact with a Catholic Priest, and it should be explored what role the ridiculous idea that these men are celibate has to do with that risk factor.
I know there are married clergy who have been found to be guilty of child molestation. I know that there are child molestors in every walk of life. But I am not aware of there being any other occupation or profession with the numbers that approach the number of Roman Catholic Priests that have been convicted of molesting children. And most of it has been covered up. Even the Pope himself is implicated in covering up for child molestors. I know that I seem unkind and prejudiced against Catholics, but I really have no interest in the Catholic Church except stopping the molestation of children. I do not believe that society and certainly not the Roman Catholic Church is doing nearly enough to protect children. Ending the charade of celibacy would not be a panacea, but as it is, you know you are dealing with a bunch of liars even if you don't know which among them are pedophiles. These men are being deceitful and dishonest when they take vows of celibacy. They know that is not how the human body works. I am sorry to be blunt and unkind, but children need to be protected.
Realist, here are a couple good articles for you. As pointed out, it is estimated the average rate of sexual abuse among the male population is 1 in 10, or 10%. Over the past 50+ years, priests have only been accused at a 4% rate, and were generally found to be actually guilty at under a 2% rate. As of 2000, fewer than 1 in 1000 priests were even accused of a sexual crime during that year, or >0.1%.
Andy, you know as well as me that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I have seen many of these articles trying to gloss over and minimize the situation. This article mentions that 80 Priests in the Boston area were accused of molesting children. Then the writer proceeds to say the Church officials made dreadful "errors". They did not make any mistakes, they knew exactly what they were doing, and did it well, making no errors. They successfully covered up the sex crimes against children for many years. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg, most of the sex crimes against children are still hidden. Of course there are clergy of every denomination, and people of every walk of life who are pedophiles. But they don't have a world-wide organization to systematically cover-up their crimes. From the Pope all the way down the line, these men are covering up for each other. These men surely can't all be pedophiles, but I know they are all liars as soon as they take these vows of celibacy. Their bodies are made out of the same flesh and blood as my body, and I know that celibacy is just not a possibility for a man with ordinary, functional reproductive and endocrine organs.
Realist, it's pretty clear we are not going to agree on this, but I hope you can see your assertions are naked allegations. It's like if I said, everyone in the Salvation Army steals money from their red kettles. The only reason they have not been found out is that the Salvation Army is a worldwide organization and can get away with it. While I can't prove it, I "know" it. Then I point to a few instances where people have been arrested for stealing from kettles as my proof, but refuse to listen to any studies showing the rate of theft by Salvation Army employees is any higher than any other organization. Your accusations reminds me of the diabolical Stonecutters from The Simpsons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBav72i7I3s - Who controls the British Crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do, we do).
I've provided facts from impartial sources showing priests even at the height of the sex scandal (70s to early 80s) were not statistically any more likely to commit a sexual crime than any other religious group and, plausibly other adult males in general, while you have anecdotes from The Tonight Show.
I also don't understand your celibate argument. Priests are liars because people can't be celibate? You realize the infamous Kinsey Report found up to 20% of unmarried women and 5% of unmarried men are asexual, meaning they have no interest in sex even if presented to them? While I doubt a large percentage of priests are asexual, it goes against your quote "I know that celibacy is just not a possibility for a man with ordinary, functional reproductive and endocrine organs." Science disagrees with you. If you chose to believe this is a conspiracy too, I don't know what else I can say. Some people are more sexual than others. Some cannot be celibate, some can. Some people are pyromaniacs or kleptomaniacs, some aren't. People are different.
Finally, I don't know how you believe the 80+ year old pope has foiled and evaded the legal processes of counties all over the world through cover ups like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget. I'm not ever sure I've ever heard a government official (ie prosecutor) complain of Vatican interference in a criminal prosecution or investigation. I know there are many that believe this, but this confusion is likely due to the media's generally poor knowledge of church terminology and failure to understand the difference between suspending a priest from his priestly duties and releasing a priest from his vows.
Either way, best of luck to you and I ask you to take a sincere look at the evidence in this matter on not rely on what your contacts "know" or late night television jokes.
Where is all of the publicity about Salvation Army people stealing from red kettles? You are making up other situations to cloud the issue of children being molested by Priests. I am not making up that issue, there is constant publicity about it. You talk about some few people who might be so-called "asexual", but the Roman Catholic Church requires all Priests to make vows to be celibate, not just a few who say they are "asexual". It is not me, but the Bible that says that to avoid fornication, let every man have one wife. It is their own business if the Roman Catholics want to violate this Biblical wisdom, but when children are abused, it is the business of every citizen.
I have just read an article about the current Pope protecting a pedophile Priest named Murphy who molested 200 deaf boys in Wisconsin. He admitted these acts, but asked Ratzinger to let him live out his life in the "dignity of my priesthood". Molesting 200 deaf children is dignity? This information was given by a man who was over the Catholics in Milwaukee, and he was trying to get Ratzinger to defrock Murphy. I fail to understand why he was not in prison. Y'all keep talking about the child molestors in all the other Churches, well put them in prison right along with the Roman Catholic Priests that molest children. I also read about Bernard Law being forced to resign as leader of the Catholics in Boston because he covered up the sexual abuse of children. But he is not in prison, he is in Rome. He conducted one of the funeral services for the previous Pope. I just learned that the Roman Catholics have a doctrine called "Crimen Sollicitationis" which requires those Catholics, including children who accuse Priests of sexual misconduct to do so within one month, and they are required to take an oath of secrecy that prevents them from going to the authorities. My concern about children being sexually molested comes from more information than the jokes that I have heard on the Tonight show. As far as accusing me of not paying attention to your statistics about child molestors other than Catholic Priests, by all means lock them up also. Any child molestors that you find in my Church--get them out of there and in prison so they can't harm more children.
Your post contains many common misperceptions. The Father Murphy case is a recent example. Fr. Murphy was accused of child molestation that occurred between 1950-1974. He was investigated by the local police department and district attorneys office, but no charges were ever filed. The police claimed insufficient evidence. There was no allegations of church cover up. In 1996, Card. Ratzinger (the future Pope) was told for the first time one of these abuses occurred during confession. Contrary to popular belief, until 2001, Card. Ratzinger's office only had jurisdiction over sexual offenses that occurred during confessional. It was suggested proceedings be started against him, but Father Murphy asked to be dismissed as the case was over 25 years old and he was terminally ill (he in fact died about a year later). At that time he was no longer an active priest and I don't believe any other accusations had been made against him since 1974. At the time of his death, charges were still pending against him. Why was he not in jail? I don't know. Ask the police and DA's office. The Church was the only organization to ever press punitive charges against him, the civil authorities could have, but passed.
Second, no charges have been filed against Card. Law. The Pope cannot sentence people to jail. Everyone knows exactly where he is. The government has not indicted him or issued a warrant for his arrest. He spends most of his time in secular Italy, not the Vatican. The US could certainly extradite him if they wanted to. Why haven't they? Ask local/federal prosecutors. I would suspect they would cite a lack of evidence.
Finally, the latin document you cite has not been in effect for about 10 years. However, it only dealt with sexual solicitations that were tied to confession. The 1 month statute of limitation only dealt with Canon Law (Church Law) not criminal law. The secrecy requirement dealt only with people conducting the tribunal to ensure a fair proceeding. It in no way forbade a victim to go to civil authorities.
I agree with you, any priest or pastor guilty of abusing a minor should be jailed.
If this woman is truly celibate, then she has my best wishes and admiration.
ReplyDeleteBut I think many of the people who claim to be celibate are like the folks who quit smoking a dozen times a day, right after every cigarette.
And for a man below the age that testosterone production wanes, celibacy is simply a physical impossibility unless he has his testicles removed.
The Pope knows this, and everybody else knows it.
Celibacy is some sort of charade, and it has to be related to the child molestation that has been perpetrated by Roman Catholic Priests for so many years.
I don;t see how celibacy can be linked to child molestation There are3 many non Christians relgious that are celibate and one gets no sense this is related to child molestation.
ReplyDeleteAll that I know is what has happened. For centuries Roman Catholic Priests, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes, etc. have claimed to have practiced celibacy even though every man on the planet knows that this is physically impossible until after he reaches the age when there is a diminished production of testosterone and sperm. I know there are Monks of other than Catholic religion, and they must be lying about it also.
ReplyDeleteFor as long as I can remember, it has been suspected that Roman Catholic Priests were molesting children. Way back in the 1960's Johnny Carson told jokes about Priests and Altar Boys. Nobody could do anything about it until the victims came forward. In the past few decades, they have been coming forward in droves. There has to be some cause and effect relationship between the fact that so many Priests have been implicated in child molestation. It should certainly be studied. Of course it is true that there are untold numbers of child molestors who are not Catholic Priests, and there are other people besides Catholics who make claims of being celibate. It does not change the fact that there is a risk factor in letting children come into contact with a Catholic Priest, and it should be explored what role the ridiculous idea that these men are celibate has to do with that risk factor.
If Celibacy was the cause or the "cover up" then why do we see similar if not higher rates among married clergy
ReplyDeleteI know there are married clergy who have been found to be guilty of child molestation. I know that there are child molestors in every walk of life. But I am not aware of there being any other occupation or profession with the numbers that approach the number of Roman Catholic Priests that have been convicted of molesting children. And most of it has been covered up. Even the Pope himself is implicated in covering up for child molestors. I know that I seem unkind and prejudiced against Catholics, but I really have no interest in the Catholic Church except stopping the molestation of children. I do not believe that society and certainly not the Roman Catholic Church is doing nearly enough to protect children. Ending the charade of celibacy would not be a panacea, but as it is, you know you are dealing with a bunch of liars even if you don't know which among them are pedophiles. These men are being deceitful and dishonest when they take vows of celibacy. They know that is not how the human body works. I am sorry to be blunt and unkind, but children need to be protected.
ReplyDeleteRealist, here are a couple good articles for you. As pointed out, it is estimated the average rate of sexual abuse among the male population is 1 in 10, or 10%. Over the past 50+ years, priests have only been accused at a 4% rate, and were generally found to be actually guilty at under a 2% rate. As of 2000, fewer than 1 in 1000 priests were even accused of a sexual crime during that year, or >0.1%.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.asp
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/04/07/mean-men.html
Andy, you know as well as me that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I have seen many of these articles trying to gloss over and minimize the situation. This article mentions that 80 Priests in the Boston area were accused of molesting children. Then the writer proceeds to say the Church officials made dreadful "errors". They did not make any mistakes, they knew exactly what they were doing, and did it well, making no errors. They successfully covered up the sex crimes against children for many years. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg, most of the sex crimes against children are still hidden. Of course there are clergy of every denomination, and people of every walk of life who are pedophiles. But they don't have a world-wide organization to systematically cover-up their crimes. From the Pope all the way down the line, these men are covering up for each other. These men surely can't all be pedophiles, but I know they are all liars as soon as they take these vows of celibacy. Their bodies are made out of the same flesh and blood as my body, and I know that celibacy is just not a possibility for a man with ordinary, functional reproductive and endocrine organs.
ReplyDeleteRealist, it's pretty clear we are not going to agree on this, but I hope you can see your assertions are naked allegations. It's like if I said, everyone in the Salvation Army steals money from their red kettles. The only reason they have not been found out is that the Salvation Army is a worldwide organization and can get away with it. While I can't prove it, I "know" it. Then I point to a few instances where people have been arrested for stealing from kettles as my proof, but refuse to listen to any studies showing the rate of theft by Salvation Army employees is any higher than any other organization. Your accusations reminds me of the diabolical Stonecutters from The Simpsons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBav72i7I3s - Who controls the British Crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do, we do).
ReplyDeleteI've provided facts from impartial sources showing priests even at the height of the sex scandal (70s to early 80s) were not statistically any more likely to commit a sexual crime than any other religious group and, plausibly other adult males in general, while you have anecdotes from The Tonight Show.
I also don't understand your celibate argument. Priests are liars because people can't be celibate? You realize the infamous Kinsey Report found up to 20% of unmarried women and 5% of unmarried men are asexual, meaning they have no interest in sex even if presented to them? While I doubt a large percentage of priests are asexual, it goes against your quote "I know that celibacy is just not a possibility for a man with ordinary, functional reproductive and endocrine organs." Science disagrees with you. If you chose to believe this is a conspiracy too, I don't know what else I can say. Some people are more sexual than others. Some cannot be celibate, some can. Some people are pyromaniacs or kleptomaniacs, some aren't. People are different.
Finally, I don't know how you believe the 80+ year old pope has foiled and evaded the legal processes of counties all over the world through cover ups like Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget. I'm not ever sure I've ever heard a government official (ie prosecutor) complain of Vatican interference in a criminal prosecution or investigation. I know there are many that believe this, but this confusion is likely due to the media's generally poor knowledge of church terminology and failure to understand the difference between suspending a priest from his priestly duties and releasing a priest from his vows.
Either way, best of luck to you and I ask you to take a sincere look at the evidence in this matter on not rely on what your contacts "know" or late night television jokes.
Where is all of the publicity about Salvation Army people stealing from red kettles? You are making up other situations to cloud the issue of children being molested by Priests. I am not making up that issue, there is constant publicity about it. You talk about some few people who might be so-called "asexual", but the Roman Catholic Church requires all Priests to make vows to be celibate, not just a few who say they are "asexual". It is not me, but the Bible that says that to avoid fornication, let every man have one wife. It is their own business if the Roman Catholics want to violate this Biblical wisdom, but when children are abused, it is the business of every citizen.
ReplyDeleteI have just read an article about the current Pope protecting a pedophile Priest named Murphy who molested 200 deaf boys in Wisconsin. He admitted these acts, but asked Ratzinger to let him live out his life in the "dignity of my priesthood". Molesting 200 deaf children is dignity? This information was given by a man who was over the Catholics in Milwaukee, and he was trying to get Ratzinger to defrock Murphy. I fail to understand why he was not in prison. Y'all keep talking about the child molestors in all the other Churches, well put them in prison right along with the Roman Catholic Priests that molest children. I also read about Bernard Law being forced to resign as leader of the Catholics in Boston because he covered up the sexual abuse of children. But he is not in prison, he is in Rome. He conducted one of the funeral services for the previous Pope. I just learned that the Roman Catholics have a doctrine called "Crimen Sollicitationis" which requires those Catholics, including children who accuse Priests of sexual misconduct to do so within one month, and they are required to take an oath of secrecy that prevents them from going to the authorities. My concern about children being sexually molested comes from more information than the jokes that I have heard on the Tonight show. As far as accusing me of not paying attention to your statistics about child molestors other than Catholic Priests, by all means lock them up also. Any child molestors that you find in my Church--get them out of there and in prison so they can't harm more children.
ReplyDeleteYour post contains many common misperceptions. The Father Murphy case is a recent example. Fr. Murphy was accused of child molestation that occurred between 1950-1974. He was investigated by the local police department and district attorneys office, but no charges were ever filed. The police claimed insufficient evidence. There was no allegations of church cover up. In 1996, Card. Ratzinger (the future Pope) was told for the first time one of these abuses occurred during confession. Contrary to popular belief, until 2001, Card. Ratzinger's office only had jurisdiction over sexual offenses that occurred during confessional. It was suggested proceedings be started against him, but Father Murphy asked to be dismissed as the case was over 25 years old and he was terminally ill (he in fact died about a year later). At that time he was no longer an active priest and I don't believe any other accusations had been made against him since 1974. At the time of his death, charges were still pending against him. Why was he not in jail? I don't know. Ask the police and DA's office. The Church was the only organization to ever press punitive charges against him, the civil authorities could have, but passed.
ReplyDeleteSecond, no charges have been filed against Card. Law. The Pope cannot sentence people to jail. Everyone knows exactly where he is. The government has not indicted him or issued a warrant for his arrest. He spends most of his time in secular Italy, not the Vatican. The US could certainly extradite him if they wanted to. Why haven't they? Ask local/federal prosecutors. I would suspect they would cite a lack of evidence.
Finally, the latin document you cite has not been in effect for about 10 years. However, it only dealt with sexual solicitations that were tied to confession. The 1 month statute of limitation only dealt with Canon Law (Church Law) not criminal law. The secrecy requirement dealt only with people conducting the tribunal to ensure a fair proceeding. It in no way forbade a victim to go to civil authorities.
I agree with you, any priest or pastor guilty of abusing a minor should be jailed.